Thank you Donn and Lou. I appreciate the long explanations. Despite having never used an e-collar I do understand what you are talking about. My helper has used the Dogtra collars exclusively so I am familiar with them. BUT.... I do not own an e-collar. While reading the other discussion I found your descriptions of the low stim training interesting and it peaked my curiosity. My first (and second) introduction to e-collars was very negative. I have attended (without my dog) two 4 day seminars with the creator of the Dogtra collars. The first seminar was enough to almost turn me off from e-collar use forever (the second was again at our club so I just came to watch). Wish now that I had enough experience to know what questions to ask. Maybe after I read your posts a few more times.

Sharon G. wrote: You mean changing the pressure, rather than just turning it on & off is "guiding" the dog? This is really interesting! It's like playing "hot & cold". Is this what Donn means by guidance system?

***** You’ve got it!!! Donn's video has a segment where he explains it visually. He uses a street with curbs as a metaphor for guiding the dog down the center of the street.

Sharon G. wrote: On the Pro model, could you use both buttons, then medium, then low, then off?

***** I don’t think it would work nearly as well, if at all. The transition between levels isn’t as smooth as the Dogtra allows. It will jump from level to level and will never taper down. It’s will either be on or off. If you were working the dog on low and that was his "working level" when you hit the high, you'd blast him out of his sox. The feel on the Dogtra power knob is very subtle. It just takes a "LITTLE" movement to guide the dog.

Sharon G. wrote: How long have you been using this method?

***** I’ve been doing it since Dogtra sent me their collar to test, I guess, about 2–3 months.

Sharon G. wrote: It sure isn't anything like momentary. Do you still have occassion to use momentary?

***** Some of my clients either aren’t interested in learning the theory or aren’t coordinated enough or can't read a dog to save their life. For the most part, for them, I use low levels on continuous. For those who can't even handle that I use momentary. But it's a third choice. Just as you have to read a dog to be successful, you have to be able to read a client.

Thanks Lou! You had good news and bad news. What did you do before the Dogtra? There must be a way to improvise with the Pro 100. This system sounds soooo good, but another $400.00 to be able to use it? You're right; the TT levels don't change smoothly. Plus my dog is worked on a very low level. So it would be difficult.

Thanks Lou! You had good news and bad news. What did you do before the Dogtra? There must be a way to improvise with the Pro 100. This system sounds soooo good, but another $400.00 to be able to use it? You're right; the TT levels don't change smoothly. Plus my dog is worked on a very low level. So it would be difficult.

Lou, didn't you always use and promote only TriTronics collars before?

Sharon, I have done collar introductions with a TriTronics 100 before, as well as with the Pro 1000. The knob on the new collar is great, no more changing plugs. I have found that I started changing levels a lot with the new collar, depending on the dog and what they were doing, a definite advantage over the old plug style. During the Brian Mowry seminar I attended Brian also used a sound device, so that one could hear when stimulation was applied. It made the whole concept very easy to understand. My very driven and independent, then 7-month old female learned to recall in about 10 minutes with an old 100 collar back then. As a 12-month-old she learned the going away part of the intoduction, also with an old model 100 collar. It is not as flexible to use, but workable. I just made sure that she wore the collar often and I fumbled around with a lot when I was not actually training, such as putting it on before meals or trips, taking it on and off and the like, so that she would not get collar wise.

ilschh wrote: Lou, didn't you always use and promote only TriTronics collars before?

***** Yep and I still do use TT collars, and I’m a TT dealer too. Dogtra used to have a problem with reliability but that apparently has been cured. Frankly, I’ve been abusing this test unit, trying to break it. I’ve drooped it over a dozen times on everything from grass to concrete and linoleum. It's still working just fine. It’s smaller than the new TT Sports series and feels like a tank.

***** But the real story is the continuously variable stimulation. That allows for an entirely new system of training that ‘s even faster than my old system. It allows for clearer communication with the dogs.

Hi Lou,
When you hold seminars, don't some people already have their own collars? Do you work with all kinds of collars when you are teaching clients? Could you possibly explain how you teach the "here" exercise with a TT or other collar, specifically in my case, the TT Pro 100. Every detail isn't necessary this time. Obviously you can't "guide" the same way with this collar. So do you just turn it on the dog's working level, and hold it there until the dog has returned to its owner? I've always shut the collar off as soon as my dog started coming to me, so he would feel successful at turning it off quickly. Is that what you do, or do you keep the stim on until the dog has completed the action of coming to handler? Ofcourse if he takes a detour, I turn the stim back on until he's made the right decision. How does this compare with what you do?

Sharon g wrote: When you hold seminars, don't some people already have their own collars? Do you work with all kinds of collars when you are teaching clients?

***** Often people show up at seminars with their own collars on their dogs. But if it’s a brand I don’t know, or know it to be unreliable, I put my own collar on the dog. If folks want to stay with their own Ecollar when they go home that’s fine with me. But I can’t work with a collar that I haven’t tested, especially in the short time constraints of a seminar. I don’t insist that someone use a TT or a Dogtra if they want private lessons. They can use their own collar but I’ll have to test it first.

Sharon g wrote: Could you possibly explain how you teach the "here" exercise with a TT or other collar, specifically in my case, the TT Pro 100. Every detail isn't necessary this time. Obviously you can't "guide" the same way with this collar. So do you just turn it on the dog's working level, and hold it there until the dog has returned to its owner? I've always shut the collar off as soon as my dog started coming to me, so he would feel successful at turning it off quickly. Is that what you do, or do you keep the stim on until the dog has completed the action of coming to handler? Ofcourse if he takes a detour, I turn the stim back on until he's made the right decision. How does this compare with what you do?

***** You’ve got most of it. When I start teaching the recall I stop the stimulation shortly after the dog has turned back towards me. After he understands that that is what the stimulation means, I keep the stimulation on for a longer time. This way he learns that it’s not just the turn and the approach that shuts off the stimulation, it’s approaching me. And then, later, it’s staying by me.

***** You can still use Ecollars that only have an “on” or “off” button for guidance, but it’s an approximation, rather than an increasing and decreasing of pressure that guides the dog into the proper position. You can get to the same place but it takes longer, and isn’t as clear to the dog.

Lou or Donn do you think the use of the e-collar without a direction i.e. (silent body language) can create a safe place for the dog? For example, if the first thing you teach is "here", and you don't add the command until after the dog has associated the behavior with the e-stim, then the first thing the dog learns is to come to and stay near the handler, as soon as he feels stimulation, correct? I would think that would create a clingy dog as Lou mentioned. I understand that learning the other type of commands (stay, go or place) are important to keep the dog balanced. But my dog is well balanced as far as that goes. But he's starting something new, or more noticable lately that I may need to fix. Let me first say that he shows no fear of the e-collar stim, and I do not use high compulsion. He runs to me when called, does sit-stay, down-stay, stand, place; all the basics. I play with him a lot at the park, and throw in exercises in between. But not in a way to make him anxious. IOW play is separated from OB practice. But this dog has a habit of just lying down somewhere, looking straight at me, waiting for me to give him a command or direction. He doesn't look anxious or fearful, just looking to me for direction. And I mean he won't move until I tell him, as if I've given him a command. I noticed if he's playing with other dogs, he'll suddenly remember me, and lie down looking at me. Ofcourse the minute I call, he acts thrilled and comes running. What could have created this? I haven't worked excessively in any one exercise (I don't think). Could part of it be his herding instinct? He's a Sheltie. I'm constantly working on bringing up his confidence. What do you think? Anyone have any ideas? Thank you!

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