Lou,
Some of us from that "other" list are here as well and use a dog's drive in our daily training as well. I don't think it's fair or accurate to assume that every single person on that list is a disciple of one particular trainer nor to assume that you know how every single person on a list trains a dog.
As far as the guidance system I have a question that I asked earlier in one of these threads that has yet to be answered:
In ob. what is the drive satisfaction for the dog? In other words you guide him into whatever position - what then?
Looking forward to your response,
Nick

Sharon,

I did some very poor retriever training a long time ago. The primary problem I had is that I wouldn't use compulsion. The dogs would go get the dummys and literally throw them at me from about 10 feet on the way past to go around and sit at heel to go again. I couldn't get them to hold until they came back. He was a good toss though, he hit me right in the hands every time. Compulsion is used to teach the technique and the retrieving drive takes over from there. If you go read the section on forced vs motivational retrieve you will see the comment that done properly you can't tell the difference. With retrievers the drive to retrieve is so high that they will put up with the compulsion to do what they love. Like a dog stuck in prey drive for protection, they will put up with anything to get the bite.

Nick, thanks for asking that question again. That's what I've been trying to figure out, and haven't been able to ask it as well as you did. Hope we get an answer this time. Now I recognize you. Sorry, I do know everyone doesn't necessarily train the same just because they're on a certain list. I'm learning a lot from everybody, and I guess there has to be a certain amount of experimentation to find out what works with each dog.

Richard, your explanation of why dogs with high drive can work with higher compulsion makes a lot of sense. My dog's drive needs to be increased, and that's where I'm kind of stuck.

sharon g wrote: If hunting dogs are being trained that way; compulsion rather than drive, then why doesn't it affect them the way it affects a PSD or even my dog for that matter? Aren't these dogs bred with a tremendous hunt drive, that could also be satisfied through use of the guidance system? It seems to me that compulsion must limit the full potential a dog could otherwise reach. Aren't the very successful hunting dog trainers also using drives to train their dogs?

***** Depends on what you mean by “hunting dogs.” If by that you mean dogs that are trained to retrieve birds shot by hunters you’re just talking about a retrieve. Many of those folks use Ecollars and at very high levels too. In fact Ecollars were invented to stop these dogs from chasing “trash,” other animals.

***** Hunting dogs would include; dogs that chase and tree bears; pointers, that find birds in brush and then freeze, pointing at them with their bodies; dogs that chase rats and other rodents down holes; and dogs that hunt humans such as PSD’s or SAR dogs. There are dozens more that I’ve left off.

***** Most of those dogs use their noses to find whatever they’re hunting for. Of course there are some, sight hounds, that don’t use their noses to any large degree, but we’re not discussing them here. Most of the hunting dogs are turned loose in an area and find the trail of the animal that they are looking for that very recently passed through. They follow it until they find the animal. For the retrievers that bring back downed birds, they beat back and forth in the brush until they come across the dead bird.

***** Those are VERY simple scent problems. The animals they hunt produce vast amounts of scent and they’ve been by very recently.

***** With dogs that hunt humans the scent problem is different. In building searches and in SAR there is usually VERY LITTLE scent for the dog to work with, so the problem is much harder for the dogs. They have to focus much harder on the scent problem.

***** My problem with the tappers isn’t the method, heck, I use it at times; it’s the level of stimulation that they find themselves using. On a TT Ecollar the levels go to a 5. Those folks often find themselves at a 4 or a 5. They’re using 80% to 100% of the power of the Ecollar. I’m typically down at the 2 or 3 level; that’s 40% to 60% of the power of the collar. They’ll tell you that the numbers don’t make any difference but they obviously do. They are much higher levels of compulsion than a 2 or a 3. With any high level form of compulsion, whether it comes from a sharp leash pop with a pinch collar, a harsh yell from the handler or a high level stimulation from an Ecollar you’re focusing the dog’s attention on the handler.

***** If the dog is focused on the handler because he’s anticipating a command from him, and he’s facing an easy scent problem, he can still probably work his way through it. But if it’s a difficult scent problem and the dog is focused back on the handler he may miss the scent altogether. If that happens the person won’t be found.

***** It’s really not a big deal if a bird dog misses a bird, and that’s not an uncommon occurrence, there are plenty more of them. It IS a big deal when a lost kid or a felon doesn’t get found.

***** It’s not that the dogs are different, it’s that the scent problems are different. For the most part the folks who are using this style aren’t doing SAR or police work. There have been a few who have dabbled but no one with extensive knowledge or background in training those dogs.

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Nick Zevgolis wrote: Some of us from that "other" list are here as well and use a dog's drive in our daily training as well. I don't think it's fair or accurate to assume that every single person on that list is a disciple of one particular trainer nor to assume that you know how every single person on a list trains a dog.

***** You’re right Nick. Sorry to have lumped everyone on that list into one homogeneous group. So where were you when I was having that huge disagreement over that system; first with one trainer, then another and finally a third??? LOL You’ll have to admit though that the most prolific of writers on that list ARE disciples of that one trainer.

Nick Zevgolis wrote: In ob. what is the drive satisfaction for the dog? In other words you guide him into whatever position - what then?

***** Nick when I do a seminar this is about a two or three hour talk so I can’t cover it all here. It’s an entire philosophy or working and training a dog. To summarize it a great deal, the dog is trained such that he believes that everything that he does is for the good of the pack. The pack being his handler and himself at the very least. If the handler says for the dog to do something it’s NOT just “Because I’m the daddy.” It’s because it bring something good to the pack.

***** Dogs do OB out of pack drive. If you can show him that OB brings something good to the pack, his drive to be part of a pack will be satisfied.

***** I’m sure you’re familiar with the “two decoy method” to train a dog to out. That system believes that the bite is a reward to the dog. And so you reward him for releasing his bite by immediately giving him another one. This is similar but different in that EVERYTHING the dog does is for the good of the pack.

***** You’ve seen frustrated dogs, frustrated because their drives aren’t satisfied. They’re usually frantic, bouncing around all over the place, energy seeping out of every pore. Take a look at the dogs in Donn’s video. They not like that at all. They’re focused, they’re calm, even thought there are multiple decoys in front of them and they’re doing bitework with OB thrown in.

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Richard Cannon wrote: With retrievers the drive to retrieve is so high that they will put up with the compulsion to do what they love. Like a dog stuck in prey drive for protection, they will put up with anything to get the bite.

***** Good point Richard. Top competitors breed and buy dogs with immense amounts of drive. They then use electronic collars at VERY high levels to put VERY high levels of compulsion on them to pick up the few points that make the difference between first and second place.

***** But VERY little of the work they are doing is about scent. And when it is, the scent problems are VERY simple.

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sharon g wrote: Richard, your explanation of why dogs with high drive can work with higher compulsion makes a lot of sense. My dog's drive needs to be increased, and that's where I'm kind of stuck.

***** To increase a drive, frustrate it. BUT, let me ask, why do you need to increase your dog's drive for a ball?

Sharon,

At one point in time I had working line Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. If you went out hiking with them you couldn't throw anything away, they would go get it and bring it back. I took my little sister aout with us when we were working. She was about 4, and picked up a rock and threw it in the deep part of the marsh we were in. The dog was out diving for the rock for 15 minutes. I was afraid I was going to have to swim out and get her before she drowned herself. She was diving with her complete body underneath the water and wasn't going to quit. If they think it is yours they are going to go get it and bring it back to you.

Lou Castle wrote:
So where were you when I was having that huge disagreement over that system;

Nick writes: Umm Lou, you don't seem to need a peanut gallery:-) You seem to argue your points very well and enthusiastically all on your own.

Nick Zevgolis wrote: In ob. what is the drive satisfaction for the dog? In other words you guide him into whatever position - what then?

Lou Castle then wrote:
Nick when I do a seminar this is about a two or three hour talk so I can’t cover it all here. It’s an entire philosophy or working and training a dog.

So are you telling me I have to see it to beleive it? Or you can't explain it over the net? Or I have to come out to one of your seminars if I want to learn? Sound familiar?
I'm not asking for an entire thesis. Just the basic working pricipals of this approach.
Also , working on the premise that a dog is a self serving creature - how is it that obedience is for the good of the pack and how does the dog derive drive satisfaction?
I really am curious.
Nick

 Quote:

Originally posted by Nick Zevgolis:
So are you telling me I have to see it to beleive it? Or you can't explain it over the net? Or I have to come out to one of your seminars if I want to learn? Sound familiar?

Nick you quoted me saying that this was a 2–3 hour talk and that I wasn’t going to spend hours writing about it. Then I said, “To summarize it a great deal . . . " and continued with an explanation that covered three paragraphs, comprising about 250 words. Does that sound like “You have to see it to believe it???” I don’t think so.

If you didn’t understand my summary, I’d think that asking for clarification would be the way to go, not insulting me. I’ve spent years on the ‘Net, helping people who asked questions I don’t deserve that rude comment.

Lou,
It wasn't a dig at you - it was made tongue in cheek. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

I'm just looking for clarification on how a dog derives drive satisfaction from working in Ob. I'm also curious to know how one can get a dog to do something for the good of the pack as you put it. Of course I understand dogs being pack animals, but above all they are self serving creatures - so I failto see the application or the practical reality of it.

I hope we can continue this conversation, I really have a genuine interest in what you have to say. My prior post wasn't meant to insult or offend.
Nick

Originally posted by Nick Zevgolis:
I'm just looking for clarification on how a dog derives drive satisfaction from working in Ob. I'm also curious to know how one can get a dog to do something for the good of the pack as you put it. Of course I understand dogs being pack animals, but above all they are self serving creatures - so I failto see the application or the practical reality of it.

I hope we can continue this conversation, I really have a genuine interest in what you have to say. My prior post wasn't meant to insult or offend.
Nick

OK Nick, Thanks for the explanation. Having had many MANY conversations with the party that you refer to wherein he would talk around the subject and NEVER answer a direct question or give any information out, I’m a bit sensitive about being compared to him.

Here’s the theory. I didn’t’ develop it all. As with most things I stole from here and there, put my own twists on it and now I’m presenting it to you here.

Yes, dogs are self-serving. That being said next time the Discovery Channel has a special on the Wild Dogs of Africa tune in. they are known to follow a herd of Wildebeest 100 miles a day while hunting them. Actually, they’re not “just” following them. They’re driving them, keeping them from resting, eating or drinking as they normally would. They are picking out the weak ones that will be easier to bring down.

After a few days of this the pack cooperates in bringing down an animal so that they can feed. Somehow the alpha dog sends a couple of pack members around to the far side of the herd from where the selected animal is. The rest of the pack stay at a distance that will keep the herd nervous but not drive it.

Those dogs, on the far side of the pack will pick out on animal and start chasing it. They will race through the herd chasing the panic–stricken animal around. The rest of the herd will naturally turn and face this display.

At some point the rest of the pack will attack the desired animal.

When that happens the alpha dog will recall the other pack members who are chasing the animal on the far side of the pack.

Think about this. There are vast amounts of prey drive present; flashing hooves; large animals running in panic; rapid movement everywhere you look. The dogs in this chase are also hungry so that’s driving them as well.

Yet, with communication so subtle that we can’t even see it, the alpha dog calls those dogs off the mock prey to assist in bringing down the real prey. He doesn’t use sharp leash corrections, he doesn’t use a harsh tone of voice, he doesn’t use an Ecollar. But he does it nonetheless.

The other dogs comply because what he wants, needs, is “FOR THE GOOD OF THE PACK.” It’s necessary for them to rejoin the main pack to assist in bringing down dinner. If they persist in their own chase, the true prey animal is liable to escape, leaving the entire pack hungry and the Wildebeest herd stampeding away.

If you can show your dog that what you want him to do, whether it’s OB, outing, biting or anything else, is FOR THE GOOD OF THE PACK he’ll for get that he self–serving and will instead, serve the pack.

This isn’t something that you can accomplish in a couple of days. You might not even be able to establish it in a few weeks, if you’ve been using a master–slave relationship up till now.

It starts by having a relationship of mutual trust and respect with your dog, that I’ve written about elsewhere on this forum.

Many people won’t accept this. Many people will say that it’s BS. Many people will say that it can’t work and for them, they’re correct. I don’t advocate this for everyone, it goes against what many of us, me included, learned, way back in our own personal dark ages of starting in dogs.

But if you doubt that it exists or that it works, take a look at the dogs being worked on Donn’s video. Watch them closely to see how calm they are, how easily they are directed, how easily they out and do what the handler asks next.

I’ve got to get Donn to fix his computer so that he can answer these questions. I’m not fully qualified to discuss his guidance system in depth. I’ve just had a few conversations with him about it. He developed it. I’ve incorporated it into my training but I may not have the full story. Sorta like reading Koehler and then going training. Next read, you realize that you’ve not been doing strict Koehler, but rather your own adaptation of it.

To answer Nick and Sharon’s question directly, how do you get a dog doing OB to believe that it’s for the good of the pack??? I show him that it brings good things to the pack. I don’t have a master–slave relationship with my dogs. It may be no more than fun that we have together. It may be that we play all the time and just do a little OB. It may be that he gets bites frequently throughout the OB session. It’s probably all of those things and more.

This sounds airy–fairy. But it works.