About this: "Never was it's possible dangers or side effects mentioned." This would probably make me consider changing vets. That's just me, and of course you may have been given an overlooked handout or perhaps a desk person or tech goofed up. The side effects (while potentially very serious) are statistically pretty rare, but the things for the owner to watch for and why are not "optional" for the vet or staff to clearly explain. Also, the "scary stuff" I post here is out of vet textbooks and from vet sites. "Don't trust the internet" makes as much sense as "don't trust books." I'm careful about sources, as are most serious researchers (as well as intelligent dog owners in general), and if I were ever dismissed in that way by my vet, it would be our last consultation. JMO, though. Just a rant. (I also think, again JMO, that this ten-year-old dog is being very over-vaccinated. But your vet is not alone, as Dr. Betty said, in this practice.)

End of that particular peeve of mine.



Can you tell us more about the poops?

You mentioned extreme mucus.

When was the last time she had normal firm brown logs? Does she usually have normal firm logs?


Also, about this:
"This AM-vomited (only yellow stuff) immediately after drinking water. No diarrhea yet, but no food either."

If this was "bile vomiting" ("empty-stomach vomiting"), which is frothy and yellow and happens early in the morning (generally), then a late-night snack will probably end it. Save some of the plain boiled white-meat chicken for bedtime.

How are her appetite and energy (or lethargy) today?


PS
If you will remind us later after the acute problems are resolved (or at least diagnosed), we can give you better fish oil dosage info, and it doesn't have to be in cap form (liquid can be added to the food). You need to give E with fish oil, too, to protect the PUFAs in the oil. Also, for now, I would definitely skip that high dose of C with a dog who has GI problems. (Remember, dogs, unlike us, make their own C.)

A diff vet was already on my mind. I tried the vet that diagnosed incontinence first,on Monday, for appt to do Heidi's yearly exam and investigate the vomiting/lack app issues- won't see Heidi w/o referral. There's only one other vet she's been to. A new set of eyes will not hurt.

No poops today-so cannot comment. Last good one would have been Thursday morning. Normally, firm stool, 1 - 2X/day.

She's following me around like normal, but sluggish. No vomiting since the AM, she's very happily eaten some boiled chicken. Still drinking water.

I will be sure to give her the late night snack. And will definitely check back for advise on the supp's!

So, tomorrow, IYO, at the very least, request vet draw blood for organ functions? Or still wait and see?

Okay, geez. Diarrhea just now. Same burnt orange in color, not seeing blood, clear mucousy stuff finishing up.

What "same burnt orange" color? Did I miss something earlier? How long have poops been orange?

(Or are you giving pumpkin, which would produce naturally orange poop?)

Is it soft squishy log, pudding, or liquid?

"I tried the vet that diagnosed incontinence first,on Monday, for appt to do Heidi's yearly exam and investigate the vomiting/lack app issues- won't see Heidi w/o referral. "

Is this a specialist? I'm not clear on "won't see w/o referral".

Nope, didn't miss anything. Just added the color JIC it meant or hinted at something. It's been the same color since diarrhea started Friday AM. No pumpkin or sweet pot's had been added to food. Definitely not log, much looser than pudding. Pretty much squirts.

During the incontinence deal way back, my normal vet and a second local vet were unable to diagnose. My normal vet insisted Heidi needed surgery to remove excess vaginal folds. Our normal vet then referred me to a vet with experience in that particular surgery.(That's the vet office I called on Monday)On examination, this vet prescribed the DES and sent us on our way.

There are several vets at that office/hosipital. I am not certain if all of them are only specialists not. I don't understand either why I have to be "referred" by another vet. I paid $200 referral fee the last time just to walk into their door.

I was impressed with the vet and care, so I called them Monday, hoping I could get Heidi in there rather than repeating a long, drawn out, non-diagnosis from local vets (as with the incontinence ordeal).
I gave vets a couple of thousand dollars over the 6 mo incontinence deal. I figured a $200 referral fee plus whatever else, well worth getting an expeditious diagnosis.

Just envisioning this becoming a situation similar to couple years ago. That was very difficult for everyone in so many ways.

My apologies! This just gets more and more complicated the more I talk. Sorry if all this is TMI.

The common condition sometimes referred to as "spay incontinence" took six months and three vets to diagnose?

Everything you say makes my own feeling about "new vet, now" stronger. But that's just me. Either way, I sure do agree with Dr. Betty here:

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

The dog has not responded as hoped to the steroid/NSAID trial, now it's time for some sort of diagnosis rather than symptomatic therapies.
When time and best guesses stop working though, it's time for some diagnostic work.
Here's hoping it won't be TOO expensive.
I am not a fan of vaccines in 10 yr old dogs either -- though I know many veterinarians who still are.

I'd probably be calling the practice you liked (where the spay incontinence was diagnosed) and explaining that you had decided to completely switch GP vets, and does their staff include GP vets and an internist.

If that's not the way you want to go, I'd want at least to talk with the current vet and get her thoughts about tentative diagnoses and what tests (and in what order) she recommends.

I'd probably be expecting a fecal (I know there was a fecal last week, but that was before the NSAID and then the vomiting and orange squirts), blood work, and abdominal x-rays. Remember, I'm not a health professional. And I admit that I'm prejudiced now against the current vet after reading about the multiple annual vax on a ten-year-old dog, the inability to diagnose the spay incontinence, the lack of info about what side effects to watch for with the NSAID, and the dismissal of your concerns about it. You have a much more filled-out picture and you may prefer to stay with the vet for other reasons.

I'm hoping that Betty pops on the thread again and maybe concurs or differs on what you might expect in the way of diagnostic procedures (and in what order, so as to lessen costs).

Either way, though, I would want some kind of discussion of tentative diagnoses and planned diagnostic tests.

All JMO!

Connie, that is EXACTLY what I need- advise regarding what I should expect/request regarding diagnostic work-what needs/should be done first, second and so forth.

Yes, it took being referred to the 3rd vet after 6 mos to get incontinence diagnosed.

I return to the same vet for "routine" things simply b/c they are local. The "3rd" vet I wanted to take Heidi to is 2 hours one way.

Now I am just really beating myself for not noticing her current fish oil does not contain Vit E ...for continuing with the same local vet...for having her spayed at a young age...how much damage have I done all on my own to my furry family member??

If Heidi's quality of life can still be good-I'll do whatever, whithin reason for a dog of this age. If something's gone horribly wrong I want to know that too asap! I definitely don't want to go through the wait and see stuff again.

Thank you!

"Now I am just really beating myself for not noticing her current fish oil does not contain Vit E ...for continuing with the same local vet...for having her spayed at a young age...how much damage have I done all on my own to my furry family member?? "

Probably none. Even if she now has a slight Vitamin E deficiency, she won't in a couple of days (just get the natural E for her .... dogs like it; if she is suspicious, just stick a pin in one end first so she can smell that there's a nice oil inside and add it to her bowl of food). (Even when fish oil contains E as a preservative, it's not anywhere near the amount you want to give when you give oil supplements.)

Spaying her early protected her from mammary tumors. Spaying isn't a one-sided issue. Spay incontinence isn't a health disaster.




For her weight (did you say 70 pounds?) I give 7 grams of fish oil (which I work up to and for which I personally prefer liquid .... I protect it like the valuable and delicate food it is, keeping it in the fridge and tightly covered) and 400 IU of E. But these of course are not part of any immediate or acute issue. (BTW, 7 grams is about a scant 1-1/2, or a scant 1.5, measuring teaspoons, or, of course, 7 1000-mg capsules. Again, this is something I work up to, and in fact would not start to change until the GI issues were resolved. I personally would continue to give what she is now getting, though, and I would definitely give the natural E.) All this is JMO and I'm not a health professional. (I am only a long-time canine nutrition researcher.)

If I were you, I would want to feel confident about my vet and comfortable having a consultation with an exam, probably a fecal and bloodwork, and then a talk about the next steps. I imagine that not much of a plan can be formulated without the exam and the bloodwork and fecal .... again, JMO. I'd lay it on the line about money, and I'd expect every test to be explained, including cost and exactly what will be ruled in or out with it .... and what alternatives there are, if any.

For myself, before any of this, I also explain up front that I feed raw and that the diet is carefully devised, balanced, and not up for scare tactics, and also that I want a minimal-vax senior-dog protocol. A vet seriously averse to either one just wouldn't make for a good relationship (for me).

I'm not confrontational about any of this. I'm explaining it bluntly here to save typing and to be clear. I want to be (and am!) in partnership with my vet, and the only way that this is sure to happen (IMO) is through an "interview," for which I make an appointment, even if it's a phone interview, and which I have always offered to pay for.




ETA
Here's the current FDA warning guidelines for vets prescribing NSAIDs for companion animals, BTW. You may want to mention it to the vet who told you to "stop reading scary stuff on the 'net."
http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31953&page=1#357177




Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/18/2012 10:56 PM)
Edit reason: eta

PS

BTW, you are here, spending time and energy to ensure that you do the best you can for your dog's well-being.

I'd completely delete any feelings of guilt; they don't belong. Your dog is fortunate.