Hey Joe,

Now I am merely reacting to a word, and not to your training or techniques or anything. Just a word.

"Reprimand" is a word I hear or read differently than you intended, I believe. To me it implies more than 'correction.'

I some times work with people that just have to wrench on the dog, and 'reprimand' it when the objective is to train and guide or correct the dog.

I try to get people to be as objective as they are capable of being when they work with the dog. A dog doesn't know from right or wrong, in my opinion.

We work to condition our dogs to voice, tone, demeanor as we work on desired responses. There are a lot of ways to command 'sit' and correct responses or lack there of. Some are more vengefully motivated than objectively or patiently motivated. Depends on the person, I think.

I watch some people who train with a bias for revenge or getting even when a dog doesn't immediately read their idiot mind and respond to their miserable commands. Not that I have an opinion.

I am one of those types that seize on a word and make a big deal out of it, and that is my cross to bear. I'm an obnoxious jerk, all too often.

In my mind, our vocabulary is an important tool in communicating with some folks. I have worked with dopes who think a reprimand includes a smack, or a huge wrench on a prong, or stringing the dog up, and even a kick, accompanied with a rant of useless vitriol, and that their approach is appropriate training and correction.

Wow! Too much coffee. The word caught my attention mostly because a flash of faces rushed before my eyes of dopes who confuse reprimand with correction. They drive me crazy.

Sorry.

Connie, as soon as it was in writing and posted, I saw my mistakes too. Thanks for your guidance.

Mike now you have me confused with my word choice, lol

Verbal reprimand or maybe I should have said verbal correction not to be confused with a physical correction or pop on the leash.

I guess I should consider myself lucky that I'm at a point with Zoey where a verbal correction or reprimand as I put it is all that's needed.

Those people who you mention, vengefully motivated and train with a bias to get even shouldn't have dogs or be allowed to train them, JMO, there is no excuse for bad training.

I think voice and tone are huge with dogs and yelling & screaming doesn't work but sounds like it might be needed with the humans you've worked with.

Maybe I had too many Monster Khaos.

Joe,

Has zero to do with you. Just a word that struck a chord.

Fortunately, not that many people but...

Must have had too much coffee.

People come in a lot of flavors. Some are patient to a fault, and some are demanding to a fault.

Some dog people should have cats.

I think some of the souls I have worked with think of correction as the need to reprimand as though the dog did some thing wrong. I guess I just think you work with the dog until it figures out the stuff but then I'm around my mutts all the time.

Frustration can lead to over the top reactions and that is the behavior I want a person to work on... Their behavior. My experience has more to do with working with the person than the dog. The observation by a person: "my dog behaves so well with you, and he won't act that way with me." And I want to go 'duh!'

If you want a dog to "down" you can't encourage it with a reprimand if it breaks. If you want a puppy to do its business outside instead of the kitchen floor, you shouldn't be quick to reprimand.

I don't think I'm a push over but I have come to believe that patience and consistency and positive reinforcement is more productive than more strident approaches.

Joe, I just seized on a word that reminded me of people who were having trouble working with otherwise excellent dogs because they had no clue on how to correct and praise. I've seen dogs handled in a way that made the dog fearful and cringing, and it burns my butt to think of those mental midgets.

Its just a word but it has a negative connotation in my mind.

I've made a meal of this and I apologize.

Mike

I do downs on the field with my dogs daily. They can be 1-2 minutes to 20 minutes or more. I can be in sight or out of sight. Distances can be up to almost the length of the field which is almost 3 acres.

I start training long downs(by that I mean more then just the position) with pups at about 6-8 monhths old in the house move to the back yard then the front yard & then other places increasing the degree of distractions. In the begining they are for seconds then extend to a minute or 2 in sight & then out of sight with pups. They don't really get into extended times until the pup is at least a year or more...depending on the individual dog. It is done VERY gradually. Adding time & distance over time. Never at the same time. Young dogs are ALWAYS on drag lines out on the field & eventually move on to e-collars. So it is easy to add distance over time & still have contol of the dog. I used drag lines up to 50 feet. I am a big fan of them on young dogs.

The down like the recall are my greatest amunition against the world filled with stupid people that do really dumb things. It is nice to have a conversation with someone without having to worry about my dogs getting into trouble of some kind.

There was a piece on the local news with me & my dogs, when I was interviewed out on one of the fields that I take my dogs to run & train. I had contacted the local police about vandalism done at the field & just happen to still be there when a detective & then the local news showed up. After the interview & speaking at length with one of the local cops that I know & news people that were there...they asked me how long my dogs would stay laying there. I laughed & said until I release them. It had been close to an hour at that point. The news guys thought it was impossible to teach dogs to do that. REALLY?! That was our 7 minutes of fame. Never made 15. LOL

" It is done VERY gradually. Adding time & distance over time. Never at the same time."


Billboard!

Long downs in my case are first taught with purely positive methods. But once distraction is introduced, then you can see how cracks start appearing with the system. Now I do not mean small distractions, but for example asking your dog to down in the middle of a busy beach side walk with dozens of stray dogs roaming about.

The video shows the environment where they held the Down stay for 12 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ole8epbD8Hk


teaching the long down depends on the dog that is being taught. In the video, you can see that I allow a less restrictive position for Bommi whereas , I expect Kaiser to not even raise his head. This is because Bommi by nature is a more stable dog.

There is compulsion involved with regards to Kaiser. Not so much for Bommi.

If I were to use purely positive methods for Kaiser, I am guessing that I cannot have him learn that he HAS to down even if he wants to do some thing else. Or, I just have to give up on Kaiser's long down.

I have nicked him about 10 times his entire life for breaking the long down. He must have done the long down atleast 300-400 times. But with a reactive breed like Doberman, if I said I am going to keep it purely positive, I do not think I can make him comply.

With Bommi, I must have given her a Verbal correction "BAD GIRL BOMMI!!" may be a dozen times her entire life. And that is sufficient for her.


I think it boils down to two questions.

1) The nature of the dog
2) Am I willing to do what ever it takes to teach the dog compliance? so that he can share my space, accompany me, be by my side at ALL times. Or Am I going to give up on him and leave hi behind because he will not comply?




I have a Platz for competition down and a Relax for real world down. When I say relax , I can actually see in my dog's face that he "mentally switches off" as against the Platz that is filled with expectation and excitement.

However, I taught the relax with purely positive methods. I occasionally reinforce the long down with treats, but mostly it is enforced with compulsion,verbal or physical as I deem appropriate.

Ram does a nicer job explaining, so in case I came across as I slap on the prong yank & crank compulsion trainer, I do use the marker system, positive reinforcement, praise.
No corrections in in learning phase or obedience until the dog has a complete understanding of the command.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Gerald Dunn

down is down till you give a release. just be careful of younger dog that forget there in down, just takes a reminder or two.

For me, that's an intermediate bridge. I like to and try hard to introduce duration gradually enough (and use the IB enough) not to have to repeat the command.

I agree, but do you let the dog decide when the down is over or do you correct and end on your terms?

I guess I'm not following. I know what you mean about breaking the down and correcting, but in my scenario, the "reminder" was an IB and the down had not been broken.