To L Swanston,

Your exercise is very good but I would try the same exact thing around nice dogs first.
Start real easy.
Get a friend with and obedience trained dog (not by me of course, as mine go NUTS on me for no appearant reason <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and do your practicing around the dog while the other dog is in a nice quiet 'down-stay'. Then do all the obedience commands side by side with your friend and her dog for a 20min walk. You shouldn't let the dogs interact at all.
When she's great at this (no aggression), try to find another friend with a 'similar' dog to do it all again. Then go practice by a dog park and THEN try your plan by the barking dogs. It will be much easier then.
That having been said, I think you gave great advice to Heather.

Originally posted by Magic-Mt.:
Heather,
How aggressive is she when you walk her and she sees children?
If the main problem is her behavior on the property, you could try getting the kids that pass by to give her a sausage through the fence for a few days. Have you scolded her for this?
Scolded her BAD, like keeping a long line on her and snapping her back hard when she lunges for the kids? You really need to hurry up and work this out -I'd hate to think what might happen if she get's out of the yard one day. If she's in the car and sees children she will go absolutely nuts. If she's at home and she even hears children she goes nuts. When we're at the park and she sees children she is not even mildly interested in them - treats them like any other person.

I correct the snot out of her when she shows aggression and praise her when she doesn't. This has been the case for the past 6-8 months with no change in her behaviour.

I too, am very worried about what may happen if she gets out of the yard one day.

If you don't reccomend the ecollar, what do you reccomend??

L. Swanston,

Thank you for your suggestion.

I have tried this approach a couple of times and find myself with sore hands from correcting her so often. She totally ignores me when a child is near "her" yard. I use a prong collar on her but still cannot get her attention long enough to get any sort of obedience... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Originally posted by Brad G.:
I've never had the opportunity to use the E-collar and haven't trained a dog to near the level many have here. I'm still new.

I can say though that doing electrical work since I was 16 in some form or other, and my whole family doing the occupation, that people are very mislead about electricity or electrical shock.

Small zaps are like any other form of pain or discomfort. It can't be so light, that someone flicking you on the ear can hurt more.

Sometimes with a stun gun (really small one) you can put it to your arm and you feel a tiny irritating sensation. It can feel the same if someone's getting a tattoo.

Unless someone put this thing on a HIGH level, I couldn't see it doing anything damaging than say a, pinch collar, etc. If you use it at the wrong time, then I'm sure it could damage a dog. You can damage a dog by using anything.

The only reason I wouldn't use one on a dog is because I've never used it. I wouldn't jump into anything in training unless someone showed me how to work it.

I've never trained dogs, but MOST people think of electric shock as something from a movie. That usually has something to do with seeing someone get the chair, or some Gestapo like torture device. Getting zapped by a tiny amount of electrical current is not like that.

From what I've heard the E-collar is just a tool that is used for precision and to speed up training. Although, if someone doesn't know what they're doing I could see the point that's often made.

Could it be when dogs are damaged or ruined, the trainer didn't know what how to use the E-collar properly? Brad,

I just wanted to say that I agree with you about the misunderstanding most people have about ecollars.

I actually tried my ecollar on myself before I put it on my dog and it feels like a tingling sensation when on the lower settings...

I've told a few people I have started my dog on the ecollar and I always get the same horrified response. They are all surprized when I explain how mild it actually is. Most people (including myself a few months ago) are just uneducated.

Heather S. wrote: My 2 year GSD is this way towards children (due to a bad experience with the neighbours kids tormenting her).

LC: First of all, if you can’t stop this “tormenting” anything else you try is doomed to failure. Whatever you do will be undermined by the kids who are messing with your dog. It might be necessary for you to build a fence that can’t be seen through, a wall or something else to keep these kids away from the dog.

Heather S. wrote: I have talked to one man who said I should set her (my dog) up so that children will be around. When she barks at them I shouldn't say anything - just hit her with the intensity at about 1/2. If she barks again he said to crank it to the top and hit her with it again.

LC: I’d avoid this technique. Using high levels of stimulation with aggression problems often aggravates, rather than cures them. The dog is likely to think that the object of his aggression is able to hurt him from a distance and try to bite even faster, before that pain sets in. As others have mentioned it can also teach the dog to shut off the display of aggression but not the aggression itself. This will give you a dog that goes from calm to murder, without the intermediate signals.

Heather S. wrote: Would your method to stop crittering work with children in the same way?

LC: It could, but if you had children or the children that have been tormenting him continue, it might not. The crittering protocol conditions the dog to look away from the prey animal and that stops the aggression or chasing from occurring. But with children, if they approached the dog probably would escalate. It’s only going to work with animals that flee or ignore the dog.

LC: In any case, I’d try using food to convince the dog that children are OK. Have the kids give the dog the treats so he realizes that they’re not his enemy. Any kind of treat that the dog really likes is good. If the dog wants to bite them then a muzzle may be in order.

LC: The problems that you mention, in the car and at home are possibly territorial. The problem in the car is probably made worse because the dog feels trapped and is being defensive as well.

LC: As far as you “correcting the snot out of the dog” for this behavior, I’d suggest that you’re simply not getting through. I wouldn’t use an Ecollar for this as other problems can arise. I would suggest that you step up to another tool that gives you a harder correction, perhaps a pinch collar. The essence of using the Ecollar is that you teach the dog that he’s responsible for shutting off the stimulation by complying with the command. This won’t happen if you just hit the button when he’s being aggressive.

LC: I’d also suggest that you work on the dog’s OB around children in the distracting areas, the car and the house so that if he does get out, he’ll respond to your commands.

LC: Brad G.’s comments about people’s feeling regarding electricity are right on target. Even if people don’t have a personal experience of electricity, they’ve read about someone being killed by it.

Lou,

The kids are no longer bugging her - their parents were consulted and I have since then, moved.

Should I have kids give her treats etc in my yard? (She is great with them outside her property).

I am currently using a pinch/prong collar with her and still can't get through to her.

Can it do any harm to try your crittering approach with her or should I stick strictly to letting her meet lots of friendly kids etc??

Thank you for your help,
Heather

Heather, if I can jump in for a minute I would just like to say that you sound like a responsible pet owner and I commend you for that. However, I don't think that getting advice over the internet is the best way to go. This is a very serious problem and finding someone wh can help you train your dog and instruct you with hands on help is the way to go.

I think ecollars are great training tools - but regardless of the tool or method you use to train your dog you need to know what to do in response to your dog's reaction.
There are many next steps in training and knowing how to identify what the dog is telling you and where to go next is key.
Good luck with your dog - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Heather,
I would suggest working on some focusing/attention exercises in a distraction-free environment, with heavy reward. For example, before I start my counterconditioning exercises with my bitch, I start by saying her name, and when she looks, give her a treat and lots of praise. I repeat this for about one or two minutes, until I feel confident that when I say her name, she will look at me. Then, I stand there quietly, and when she looks at me, I treat and praise. Every time she looks at me, treat/praise. Do this for another minute. As I am walking her toward the yard with the other dogs, I randomly say her name, then treat/ptaise. When she will not look at me, but will only focus on the other dogs, I back up until I get to a place where she can look at me when I say her name. That's how I determine safe distance.

Magic, thank you for the suggestion. So far, I've had good results, but if/when I get to the point where I want to test her in a different situation, I will probably do as you advise.

Brad, I have tried my dog's no bark collar on, and you're right, it's just a tingle. One time, we had four people hold hands, while I held the bark collar in my hand and barked. The resulting shock was actually quite intense! I would have thought the opposite would happen with more people sharing the shock, but....it was wierd, anyway. Anybody know enough about electricity to know why this happened?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Family K9:
Heather, if I can jump in for a minute I would just like to say that you sound like a responsible pet owner and I commend you for that. However, I don't think that getting advice over the internet is the best way to go. This is a very serious problem and finding someone wh can help you train your dog and instruct you with hands on help is the way to go.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your concern - I agree that aggression can be a big problem to tackle alone.

I did consult a trainer a few days after it happened. He suggested the same as most have on this board - lots of obedience. He also said it will always be a problem and to confine her in a locked kennel inside the yard and not let her be around kids... But I really think the problem can be fixed!

I moved since then and finding a decent trainer here has been tough. After meeting a few bizarre "trainers" I have discovered that, as someone on this board said before, anyone can stick their shingle out and call themselves a dog trainer. I am a little leery to let a trainer go ahead and have me begin whatever method he sees fit.

Which is why I have brought this up on the board -to get a broad range of ideas and concepts and to see if there's some unity among them.

L. Swantson,

Thank you for your advice - I will give it a shot!!

Heather