 Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Tammy Moore ]
#359522 - 04/26/2012 11:53 AM |
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What differentiates a "trained" PPD from just an aggressive dog?
I'll bite....excuse the pun....
By aggressive, I'm assuming you are saying a dog that is, by nature, quick to bite/attack people.
I would answer this as: A 'trained' dog works/aggresses/attacks ONLY under command of its handler & an outright naturally aggressive dog will aggessing/attacking on it's own when feeling threatened or frightened.
The 'trained' dog will be a very sound temepermented confident dog. The naturally aggressive dog is one that is usually of less sound temperment, a nervey, reactive less confident dog.
Others may explain is differently.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Eric Hultgren ]
#359524 - 04/26/2012 12:19 PM |
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Eric....you would be looking for a breeder that has working line dogs. A litter from parents titled in the venue in which you hope to compete. You want a breeder that compets their own dogs in that venue.
You would be looking for pups from these kinds of litters. Within litters there are puppies with varring degrees of traits you are looking for.
It is far to complex to go into lines of dogs within breeds. That's where your research comes into play. Breeders know their lines & their dogs, or at leas they should. They should be willing to discuss the pros & cons of the dogs in their pups' pedigree & their different traits & charastics. Sport & PP dogs come from these kinds of litters. Each pup is an individual & brings varring degress of the traits to the table.
If you are looking for a true PPD you need to look at green dogs around the 12-18 month age range where you are pretty much seeing what the dog is offering, as by that age you are seeing pretty much what traits the dog will carry as an adult & if they will be suitable for that kind of work.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Eric Hultgren ]
#359528 - 04/26/2012 01:02 PM |
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I heard a trainer the other day mention the difference between a working protection dog and a ring sport dog. I didn't have time to ask her more about this, so I put it to you. I'm particularly wondering about differences in temperament, drive, living with the dog, and what kind of pedigree and parents you look for when picking out a breeder for each. Also, which do you prefer?
Thanks!
There can be a world of difference, or they can be the same dog in one package. There are many instances in Europe of working police/security dogs (I think they would qualify as PPD+ dogs :-) ) who are K9s during the week, and Ring dogs on the weekend. Some very successful Ring dogs, ie winning World Championships. One of my Ring dogs was a K9 before I bought him, working in the subways in France. He wasn't the best Ring dogs I've had in terms of points, but he got his FRIII.
Other dogs may be two defensive to make a good sport dog, but still be able to perform as a protection dog. And still others may not have the level of defense neccessary for protection work, but have the drive and character needed for sport work.
And finally, a lot of it simply comes down to training. If you have a dog who has good character, and balanced drives, you can focus more on the "game" side of things to make a drivey clear headed dog that will do well in terms of points, or you can focus more on the civil "its real" side of things to make them into more of a PPD.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: steve strom ]
#359529 - 04/26/2012 01:24 PM |
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99 % of people don't need a 'TRUE' PPD. Nor do they want to live the way that you need to with that kind of dog. With VERY VERY VERY rare exceptions, they are dogs that are NOT at all social with others than their 'pack'. They need proper handling & confinement.
This describes Enzo to a T. I would never leave him alone in a room with a strange person or dog. Nor would I leave him out of my sight for a second. He is handled 24/7 when out; my eyes never leave him. If anyone stares at him or makes a physical move he doesn't like, he is quick to aggress towards and if he feels threatened has no qualms about biting. He has bitten three people to date. There is only 7 people and 4 dogs (two of which he lives with, one he tolerates (after he attacked him the first time he met and punctured and drew blood on him) and the other he was raised with) he is 'ok' with. During his stint with the PPD trainer I was told he had good defense. Keep in mind this is a labrador retriever.
OTOH, he is also the best sport and most versatile dog I've ever seen. He rocks at dock diving, agility, nosework and has a lot of ringsport commands already learned. He learns most anything within 10 minutes or 3 show me's. He has an extensive vocabulary, is bomb proof and very forgiving to the e-collar. How the hell I was lucky enough to end up with this crazy dog I'll never know. 
Hey Tanya, how old is Enzo? When was he with the protection trainer?
He just turned 2 in December. He displayed aggression at 4 months of age. Any dog that came around he immediately attacked it, no filter whatsoever. People too. It was very scary. He started working with the PP trainer at about 15-18 months of age. The scariest part of it all was the more the person/dog fought the more Enzo dug in and went nuts. Since working with the PP trainer, he learned to control his bite and to voice commands - before he never stopped until I could physically pull him off or the dog/person submitted defeat.
I'm still a little leary of doing ringsport with him because even though he will out on command, if the person twitches or he feels the threat he will punch and at that point he may be in PP mode rather than sport. His trainers now know who he is and are working around it trying to figure him out.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Tanya Moyer ]
#359530 - 04/26/2012 01:39 PM |
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Who are you training Ring Sport with?
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: steve strom ]
#359532 - 04/26/2012 02:01 PM |
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Who are you training Ring Sport with?
Andrew Ramsey and Lisa Maze (Michael Ellis' breeding partner).
Tanya |
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Eric Hultgren ]
#359533 - 04/26/2012 02:04 PM |
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Great! this is all super helpful. I think I will eventually be looking for more of a ring sport dog, but we'll see what happens. I'm psyched to get a new dog, but I have to wait =( The differing levels of aggression/defense are really interesting, as well as the different training you do to stress different qualities. Are there any die-hards for either kind of dog out there?
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Tanya Moyer ]
#359534 - 04/26/2012 02:31 PM |
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Who are you training Ring Sport with?
Andrew Ramsey and Lisa Maze (Michael Ellis' breeding partner).
I hope it works out. Just from the sound of it, and its just the impression I get from your descriptions which could be wrong, there's a lot they do need to figure out and help you with, even if its not in ring sport just everyday living with him.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: Eric Hultgren ]
#359535 - 04/26/2012 02:33 PM |
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Great! this is all super helpful. I think I will eventually be looking for more of a ring sport dog, but we'll see what happens. I'm psyched to get a new dog, but I have to wait =( The differing levels of aggression/defense are really interesting, as well as the different training you do to stress different qualities. Are there any die-hards for either kind of dog out there?
All I want is a good sport dog Eric. All I want to do is enjoy my dog. Its all for fun.
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Re: Working protection dogs versus ring sport dogs
[Re: steve strom ]
#359537 - 04/26/2012 02:56 PM |
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Who are you training Ring Sport with?
Andrew Ramsey and Lisa Maze (Michael Ellis' breeding partner).
I hope it works out. Just from the sound of it, and its just the impression I get from your descriptions which could be wrong, there's a lot they do need to figure out and help you with, even if its not in ring sport just everyday living with him.
Thanks - me too! Lisa is great with the day to day management, and basically that's what I have to do - manage him all the time. He has improved 1,000%; however, he still is twitchy and if someone gives him the eye, he is quick to let them know he doesn't like it. So I have to keep his focus on me a lot. He's also a super cool and fun dog, and has all the great lab qualities, very helpful around the house by picking up everything and anything you ask, snuggly and loving, a true all around best friend!
Tanya |
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