Quote: Ben McDonald

IMO, there is way too much information missing to make a solid response, and proper plan of correction for this behavior. At any time when you start dealing with not just unwanted aggression, but unwanted owner/handler aggression, it's time to call in the professionals for an honest assessment. Then a proper course of action can be taken.

Your not just talking about aggression towards other animals, or people, it's aggression towards you as the leader. You are THE LAST person on earth that he should be showing any signs of aggression towards. A healthy relationship consists of trust, respect, obedience, and love. In that order.

What area do you live in? Perhaps someone here can reccomend a good behaviorist.

What he said

Thanks again for the tips everyone.

Just to answer a few questions..

Oliver's crate is one of the plastic type crates. He can see through his door and his small windows on the side. The area in which he generally gets mad is when I'm on the opposite side of the crate. When looking at me from there, he could probably see no higher than my stomach, unless he's turned sideways. He's a Bull Terrier so he can't really see much in front of that long nose.. I tried covering it a few months back, but it didn't seem to make a difference. Some trainers have told me to cover it, where as others said to leave it open.

I also definitely understand that the growling is really a good thing. However, I really don't know how to work with the situation I have. I will definitely try rewarding him when he hears the noise.. I had never really thought about it that way.

And there's surely lots of information that is missing as he's been a troubling dog for the past 8 months, but I'm afraid it may get too long and too much to read.

I was working with a behaviorist and while this is totally my fault, I didn't do my research well. At the time, I was in desperate need for help and what I read from this particular behaviorist seemed to be perfect. Oliver went to him for about 3 weeks and came back pretty similar to how he was and spooked from a squirt water bottle as well as a rash on his neck from some type of spray collar. Long story short, I'm left with many questions but can no longer get in contact with the behaviorist. I've paid him and he's gone. The last thing he told me was to consider another dog with a different temperament.

Since then, I've done many socialization walks with other dog owners and have taken a few private lessons with various trainers but have yet to find one that I can really feel comfortable with. Though, that may just be because the bad experience I've had in the past.

Recommendations would be greatly appreciated. My first experience with a behaviorist was unpleasant, and as a college student, it hurt me financially big time. I am in Davis, CA. The thing is, I feel that Oliver's issues can't really be solved in a private lesson. It has to be a trainer that works with me for months and sees how Oliver interacts with my Girlfriend and I. To my untrained eyes, he's not consistent with his aggression..

Again, if there's any additional questions that I can answer, please let me know.

Thanks,
John

John,

One thing I would do if I was in this situation. From your posts it sounds like Oliver may spend a lot of time in his crate; if so, this could be a reason why he is becoming so territorial. When you're home is he out of the crate or do you normally let him free in the house? How many hours a day is he in the crate? Does he get adequate exercise for a dog his age and size?

One of the first things I would do is spend some time sitting next to his crate on the side he seems to have a reaction to, I would feed him high value treats thru the bars and talk softly to him when he's NOT growling. Once he becomes comfortable and (hopefully) stops the growling and starts enjoying your presence by the crate, I would then open the door and do the same thing.

I would not correct or discipline him while in the crate - this could be what's causing the aggressiveness by his feeling cornered. Like I said before, without being there and witnessing the act it's hard to determine what to do. Every dog is different and based on temperament is how I decide how to handle the situation. However, until you get his handler aggression under control, reacting or correcting with compulsion can lead to aggressive behavior - it just depends on the dog. A good trainer should be able to identify what your dog reacts to and what methods would work to correct this bad behavior. I live in San Jose - there are so many good trainers in the bay area, but there are also some bad ones, so do your research and find one that isn't a cookie cutter trainer; find one that will evaluate YOUR dog and come up with a plan for YOUR dog.

Second everything Tanya said. Also, if you're investing money in correcting this behavior, why not get a wire crate? Does he have a pillow or blanket in there, so that he's as comfortable as possible? My dog is much more comfortable in her crate than she is in her pet porter.

One more question for the forum; is location of the crate a factor?

IME, wire or plastic doesn't really matter when you'e got a dog that worked up in a crate...

What I'm seeing is a dog that doesn't feel safe and is on edge with everything and has learned that the aggressive behavior gets him what he wants (I growl, people back off). With the additional information about the "behaviorist" I'm seeing a lot of baggage that needs to be worked through to repair the trust relationship. You really need a good trainer/real behavioralist to work through this.

How do you reward what you want with your dog? Do you have a good reward system in place. If you don't, look at this from your dog's perspective - "people just correct, correct, correct and I'm not sure why and not sure what exactly they want - I'll just stay out of their way so I'm safe"

I think there’s a lot to be said for "let sleeping dogs lie".

I couldn't agree with Lisa more on wake up methods. When my dogs are resting/asleep, no one is allowed near them. For the two I've had right from pups, they can be approached any time, any place but it's a respect thing for me, no different than feeding.

When they're sleeping, it's a time when a lot of people want to approach because they're calm and relaxed and usually easily acessible as opposed to when they're up and about.

My boy often need to go out in the middle of the night. They have access to water 24/7 because they're at stage where I no longer have a need for nighttime crating.

How they wake me up is really interesting to me. They have complete access to us and can approach it in any number of ways. I've had the odd face lick when I'm sure other attempts have failed but their primary method is a soft nose nudge to my hand or foot. Now these are often under the blanket but they seem to know exactly where they are.

It's interesting in that I appreciate this method more than a face lick and have completely embraced the concept.

If I have to wake them up, I often have a smelly treat that I run under their nose. If they're in a deep sleep though, I gently run my finger down a toe on their front paw. When their eyes open, I always have a big smile on my face and put the treat down for easy access when they're ready. I don't say anything and give them a second before I start heading in the direction I want them to follow.

My boys pretty much get up immediately (with the exception of the shepherd who I don't think ever really sleeps - my eyes are open, so are his) but I’ll recall from a distance if the others are hesitant or a bit sleepy still.

As for the water bottle, oh my. Personally, I can't believe someone would recommend this. I'm sure it's effective to a certain degree but to me it's no different than rolling up a newspaper and letting them have it.

Just because you're not physically hitting them and doing it at arms length, it probably removes the conflict for the human but I can not imagine what the blast in the face is doing to an unsuspecting pup. And a pup that startles easy at that.

Every action sparks a reaction. It's those reactions that need to be understood and conditioned to the response we're looking for.

Do these people carry a water bottle around constantly? I guess that's what the collar was about. Again, I've heard they can be effective, but not something I would ever think of doing.

This boy has issues with people. Something has taught him to fear their presence. You have the benefit of the open communication he's providing you. Please don't shut down those vocals. You need to change his frame of mind, not the way he communicates what he's feeling.

I would dial back all interactions with people for at least a month. Let him learn what it's like to live without that fear.

You and him and good times only. Learn about him, watch him. What makes him happy when is he calm around you, what drives that calmness, what does he find rewarding.

Put his crate in a back room for the times he needs to be in it.

In order to recondition a fear properly, I don’t believe there is a quick fix. Sure, it can be masked to illicit different responses, but it will never be predictable and god forbid you forget your water bottle.

It's a learning process for both him and you. Maybe post back with what makes him happy and what you feel are your most enjoyable times with him. Perhaps we can offer some suggestions and help you work from there.

Hard to say because we're not there and I'm certainly no expert, JMHO.

I wish you the best of luck with this boy. It sounds like you're really trying hard to make this work.

 Quote:

How they wake me up is really interesting to me. They have complete access to us and can approach it in any number of ways. I've had the odd face lick when I'm sure other attempts have failed but their primary method is a soft nose nudge to my hand or foot. Now these are often under the blanket but they seem to know exactly where they are.

Wow CJ, I never thought about it quite like that, but you're exactly right. My dogs are also extremely careful in the way they wake me up.They don't wake me up unless they NEED something. Even then they start out with soft pacing/staring at me or feet on the side of the bed. As a last resort, they bark.

Thanks again for all the replies and helpful information!

Tanya,
Oliver does stay in his crate quite a bit. When I adopted him, I had not intended for this, or to even have a crate at all, but waking up and growling became an issue and he was tearing stuff apart when I was not home. Most days he's in his crate for maybe a total of 3-4 hrs on and off other than at night when he sleeps (generally 10-8AM).

He goes for quite a few walks a day and is always playing ball throughout the house. In fact, anytime he's not in his crate, he's being active (playing ball, going on a walk/jog). If he's free inside the house, once he starts to lose interest in whatever he's doing, I let him in his crate to nap.

I 70% of the time, I reward him when I let him into his crate with a pebble. He knows what to do when I say "inside." I give it to him with the door open and sometimes through the crate wire and he does just fine. Same thing with feeding time, I tell him to go inside, and he immediately sits. Since he was a pup, I taught him to leave it until I said it was ok to eat and he still does just fine and I'm completely comfortable with him and would never expect any situations to arise. I live in an apartment that's fairly small so I'm near his crate a lot. If he's fully awake and in his crate, he'll never get aggressive with me. It's only when he's lying down, just about to sleep.

I totally understand what you're saying by not correcting him when in the crate. I actually live in Davis, CA but am from San Jose, CA. I'm back in the Bay almost every weekend so a trainer in the South Bay may actually work for me. Do you have any recommendations?

About the wire crate -- I actually have a few (as he was growing). When he had just gotten neutered, he was very aggressive, I think likely due to the medication he was on/pain he was in. He bent the crate trying to get out and bite me and if I stood there long enough, he probably could've bent it to the point where it broke. Since then, I've decided to get the pet porter type crate.

Mara,
I'm not sure if I'm rewarding him correctly per say? I mean, when I tell him to sit, and he does, I give him a pebble. When he goes into his crate, I'll give him a pebble. On walks, I make him sit when a dog when a dog is walking by and I'll give him something a bit better than pebbles. He must sit to get the ball.. etc.

Since posting this, I've been trying to give him a treat every time I feel he's going to growl when he's in the crate. However, sometimes it's hard to know if he's going to do it at that moment and I also need to work on my timing (when to reward) then which I feel is key.

I've also tried actually pinning him down (which I've been told is not the correct thing to do AT ALL). One of the trainers in my area who everyone raves about taught me this technique and I did it for a short period of time. I stopped soon after only because I felt it was ruining the bond between Oliver and I, and also, if I didn't do it correctly, I could get bit easily. In some sense, I feel like Oliver doesn't have that "I growl, people back off) mentality.. at least with me.

CJ,
Thanks so much for the info. I find the stuff about sleeping very interested. It's kind of what I've been doing now.. I mean, I don't like to be bothered when I'm sleeping either.. . And I really don't feel like it's a bad thing that I'm putting him into his crate to sleep.. it's his bed and that what he likes.

The only thing is, like I've mentioned before, unless I'm 100% aware and watching him, I can only keep him out of his crate roaming the apartment when he's playing with a ball/toy. Once he starts to dose off, or even lie down, I put him in his crate where he'll eventually fall asleep. I guess it's more of my own fear and needing to get over it. I've slowly been trying to keep him out on leash when watching TV and that has been going well. But, when he's out, I'm always watching him very closely, just in case.

Again, I hope this all makes sense and not just rambling on. There's so much more I can share but this thread would go forever. I've tried to include all the main points.

Thanks so much!

 Quote:

Since posting this, I've been trying to give him a treat every time I feel he's going to growl when he's in the crate. However, sometimes it's hard to know if he's going to do it at that moment and I also need to work on my timing (when to reward) then which I feel is key.

Hi John,
IMO, this is something that you need to be careful with. What exactly are you rewarding him for, and more importantly, what does the dog think he's being rewarded for?

It sounds like, from what you have written, that you are trying various things when the dog is in his crate to see if it will elicit an aggressive response from him. ie, opening and closing drawers, standing close to the crate when he's sleeping, etc.

If that is the case, IMO, you need to stop doing those things. If it's not the case, and these are just things that occur as part of your day, then you need to move the crate to an area where the dog feels safe.

I don't mean to imply that it's OK for the dog to growl at you when he's in the crate. It's not. But if he felt safe in the crate he likely wouldn't feel the need to growl.

Sorry if I've missed it, but what is your daily exercise regimen with him? You have a second dog in the apartment?

ETA, good info in Mara's & CJ' posts

Agree with Lynne!

Don't mess with him around the crate. Ignore him. Crate goes in an out of the way corner and when he's in it just leave him be. No attention, no slipping kibble through the crate right now. If you're going to give him something in the crate, it goes in before he goes over to it. If you're going to take something out of the crate it comes out after he's out and away from it. It's safe, quiet spot where nobody messes with him.

Every time you try something to see if he'll react and he does followed by you stopping, it further solidifies in his mind that what he is doing is working.

So quit trying to see what makes him react. Try to stay away from those things.

Read up on marker training http://leerburg.com/markertraining.htm and start using it to teach him what you want and rebuilding the relationship that has been damaged. He's had A LOT happen to him in his young life with the "behaviorist" and alpha rolling. I venture to guess that he is not at all sure of what you want and has learned that humans are unpredictable.

You need to make yourself very predictable and safe to him. Fun motivational training time, play time, then quiet time where he is not bothered. Don't throw new things at him, just get a good basic routine with things that he's comfortable with. If he has a few commands/behaviors that he's good at now, use those as you start out marker training, he does them, he's rewarded. He needs to learn how to relax around you, then that working with you/trusting you is rewarding.