 Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361772 - 05/22/2012 06:13 PM |
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Ah, see, two ball/trades didn't work for Danni. If she had what she wanted she wasn't coming back for anything.
A recall issue, then, no?
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361776 - 05/22/2012 06:36 PM |
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No, she would come back but run away or refuse to out no matter what else you had to trade.
Duane, I wasn't suggesting he skip the motivational methods. But to me it sounded like he had tried the trade thing. Of the dog knows the out command (very well, per the OP) it should be corrected for not doing it, IMO.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361778 - 05/22/2012 06:47 PM |
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No, she would come back but run away or refuse to out no matter what else you had to trade.
Back-chaining this works great.
With the O.P., who wants a simple release of the item, I'd use two-frisbee and/or I'd back-chain (I'd teach the last link in the command chain separately).
JMO!
As Bob Scott has said, the retrieve is not taught by throwing the item and hoping for the best. 
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361779 - 05/22/2012 06:52 PM |
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I don't think the OP had tried "trading" for an object of equal value. It sounded to me like he was trying to reward with an item of lesser value.
Sadie |
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#361780 - 05/22/2012 07:08 PM |
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I don't think the OP had tried "trading" for an object of equal value. It sounded to me like he was trying to reward with an item of lesser value.
Good point!
A second frisbee and an immediate second toss. JMO!
eta
I can take his air away and he will drop it but I usually don't like doing that either. Though it doesn't seem to really bother him at all.
Edit reason: eta
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361782 - 05/22/2012 07:11 PM |
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Then yes, try it with an equal value item if you have not. Try a regular pinch correction if you have not (rather than choking the dog off). My out is a command. I assumed (since the OP stated his dog knew it very well) that the drop it was a command.
Neither of my dogs will voluntarily let go of anything. Sure, they might if I have another ball. But they don't understand it as a casual game. Take away the other ball, they don't out. And even then, Danni would prefer self-rewarding with the ball she already has.
So I taught an out command. And, as with my other commands, you get corrected if you don't comply (assuming the dog knows the command).
Does that make sense? It's not the Koehler method. It's just the method I used when rewards weren't working. If my dog understand a command well with everything but one object, I'm not going to bribe him/her. But that's just me.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361784 - 05/22/2012 07:26 PM |
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I guess the differences lie in training styles. This is a consideration that the OP will have to make for himself. There are a lot of good trainers that use compulsion, and I use it for behaviors that have been proofed.
I don't consider marker training as bribes. I personally care to teach motivationally as much as possible, with corrections as a last resort. My Schh club advocates this, as well. We are not afraid of corrections, and have dogs that get ecollar corrections, but only after we've made sure that a refusal is out of spite.
Sadie |
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361785 - 05/22/2012 07:34 PM |
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You're not getting it. If the dog understands the command and refuses to comply, it needs a correction. Marker training is not a bribe. Bringing out another toy in hopes that that as a reward will make the dog want to out, is, IMO, a bribe IF THE DOG KNOWS THE COMMAND. The OP states the dog knows the command. All of my foundation is reward based marker training. My dog understands out. When she doesn't out, she gets corrected. How is that compulsion based training? Yes, I taught an out with compulsion because marker training didn't work. I stated that, IMO, pretty clearly.
The OP said his dog was marker trained, knows the command, and refuses to do it. You wouldn't correct for that?
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361786 - 05/22/2012 07:36 PM |
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Yup, makes sense.
I use two-ball to teach the "give back" for fetch ... not as a permanent method.
Like marker-training with food doesn't mean that food must be forever be carried around, two-ball likewise doesn't mean that a second ball (frisbee) must be forever carried around. The second ball (frisbee) is gradually phased out.
The dog might have learned that releasing the frisbee means game over, or maybe the dog has learned that he can get a game of wrestle or chase going.
But two-ball can eliminate both of these perceptions, IMHO.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361789 - 05/22/2012 07:41 PM |
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You're not getting it. If the dog understands the command and refuses to comply, it needs a correction. Marker training is not a bribe. Bringing out another toy in hopes that that as a reward will make the dog want to out, is, IMO, a bribe IF THE DOG KNOWS THE COMMAND. The OP states the dog knows the command. All of my foundation is reward based marker training. My dog understands out. When she doesn't out, she gets corrected. How is that compulsion based training? Yes, I taught an out with compulsion because marker training didn't work. I stated that, IMO, pretty clearly.
The OP said his dog was marker trained, knows the command, and refuses to do it. You wouldn't correct for that?
Absolutely agree! One thing, though: How many times have we read "the dog KNOWS the command" only to find out pages later that the dog knows the command in a certain venue, or when given with a certain pattern, or inconsistently (sometimes rewarding non-compliance with a fun little chase game, say).
So backing up is probably a good idea. Two-ball is one way to start over; back-chaining is another.
All JMO!
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