Duane Hull wrote 07/26/2012 02:05 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Jeff Margel ] #364467 - 07/26/2012 02:05 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	I believe that my GSD was foundation trained in this manner (hands on). I got her at 2.5yo. She is now 4yo, and she is STILL hand-shy. I taught her my system, then retaught her OB, and I never have to touch her. I use a positive verbal correction ("uh uh", which DOES NOT mean the same as "NO"), and she immediately reattempts the commanded behavior. Sometimes I just look her in the eyes and wait, and she automatically tries again. Once you establish your marks (and not just your reward marker but your entire basic marker vocabulary), you can get compliance without repeating the command. Caveat: Saying "uh uh", THEN repeating the command is not the same as giving multiple commands; it is communicating to the dog that he is wrong and needs to try again. Sadie
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steve strom wrote 07/26/2012 02:15 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Duane Hull ] #364468 - 07/26/2012 02:15 PM
steve strom Webboard User Reg: 03-17-2006 Posts: 4203 Loc: Offline	Huh? If uh uh means thats not correct, what does no mean?
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/26/2012 06:25 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Jeff Margel ] #364469 - 07/26/2012 06:25 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Duane, if you mean a "uh uh" is your negative marker (as mine is "nope"), I'm thinking this is way confusing at this point --- that your enthusiasm may be getting the thread way ahead of itself. (Quote: "There are positive and negative markers. .... It is important to mention that a negative marker is not a correction. It is simply a way of communicating to the animal that he just made a mistake and if he expects to get that high value reward he needs to redo the behavior correctly. .... Through repetition the dog learns that every time he hears the positive Marker he gets a reward. Every time he hears the negative Marker he does not get a reward and he has to repeat the behavior or exercise" from http://leerburg.com/markers.htm ) We are not even sure what video the O.P. is referring to, and to the best of my knowledge, we have only just barely introduced the word "marker" to him. Maybe I'm reading wrong, but to me, we have only reached "what video are we talking about" and "marker training is what to learn about." JMO! I certainly could be way off! Jeff, you can see that many (or most) of the regulars here almost automatically think in terms of marker training. I'm hoping you'll take advantage of Anne's suggestion and the huge amount of material available on LB, of which this is a tiny part to get you started: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32508&page=1#364362
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steve strom wrote 07/26/2012 02:27 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #364470 - 07/26/2012 02:27 PM
steve strom Webboard User Reg: 03-17-2006 Posts: 4203 Loc: Offline	Sorry, didnt mean to derail your thread. As a caveat, I have no system. I think what may be confusing Jeff, before luring and the marker style training became more widespread, it wasnt unusual to repeat things to a puppy more in an encouraging way then strictly double commands.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/26/2012 03:07 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: steve strom ] #364471 - 07/26/2012 03:07 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: steve strom Sorry, didnt mean to derail your thread Jeff. As a caveat, I have no system. I think what may be confusing Jeff, before luring and the marker style training became more widespread, it wasnt unusual to repeat things to a puppy more in an encouraging way then strictly double commands. I think you're exactly right. That's why I asked about the date of the video, if it's the Basic Obedience one (#302).
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Duane Hull wrote 07/26/2012 04:08 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Jeff Margel ] #364472 - 07/26/2012 04:08 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	Quote: Jeff Margel I noticed in the video that training the puppy that the command is given multiple times if the pup does not sit, lay down, etc.. The trainer I used always made it a point to only say the command ONCE, and if the pup/dog did not listen or did not do the command to do it for them. He told me that this is how they learn to do it on the first command. That when you do the command for them after they refuse to do it, to not be harsh and to put your hands on quick enough to do the command for them and to get the hands off (no petting, etc..) Would this not make more sense to do it this way? Both my shepherds were trained this way and they learned quite fast. I was thinking that, in the video, there may have been a bridge between the repeated commands and the poster was overlooking it; that would explain the perception of repeated commands. I got the impression from this post that the poster had some basic introduction to marker training and was confused by seeing something from a different marker system in the video. I use the terms "positive" and "negative" differently than you do. In a four-quadrant operant conditioning system, negative means something is withheld or taken away, while positive means something is added in. "Uh uh" is communicated (positive correction) indicating the "negative reward" (reward withheld). If I only withheld the reward without speaking to the dog, that would be a negative reinforcer. Sadie
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/26/2012 04:46 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Duane Hull ] #364473 - 07/26/2012 04:46 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Duane Hull .... I was thinking that, in the video, there may have been a bridge between the repeated commands and the poster was overlooking it; that would explain the perception of repeated commands. I got the impression from this post that the poster had some basic introduction to marker training and was confused by seeing something from a different marker system in the video. I use the terms "positive" and "negative" differently than you do. In a four-quadrant operant conditioning system, negative means something is withheld or taken away, while positive means something is added in. "Uh uh" is communicated (positive correction) indicating the "negative reward" (reward withheld). If I only withheld the reward without speaking to the dog, that would be a negative reinforcer. I was thinking that he is not watching a marker video at all and that all this would therefore be very confusing.  Quote: Jeff Margel no it's not the marker training, it's the basic dog training.
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steve strom wrote 07/26/2012 04:29 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Duane Hull ] #364474 - 07/26/2012 04:29 PM
steve strom Webboard User Reg: 03-17-2006 Posts: 4203 Loc: Offline	Uhh, you're using the terms differently alright.But its you're system, so have fun. Edited by steve strom (07/26/2012 04:51 PM) Edit reason: Not important
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Anne Jones wrote 07/26/2012 04:58 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: steve strom ] #364475 - 07/26/2012 04:58 PM
Anne Jones Webboard User Reg: 04-29-2004 Posts: 3825 Loc: Northeast Offline	Quote: steve strom Ahh, nevermind. Lets talk about something easy, like fight drive or defense! MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/29/2012 01:12 PM Re: Leerburg training method? [Re: Jeff Margel ] #364576 - 07/29/2012 01:12 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Jeff, don't let us lose you. It would be great if you decided to have a look at this info: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32508&page=1#364362
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