I think the "eye" thing can be misinterpreted by non "eye" dogs.
I would discourage the pup from locking in on Pinker.

 Quote: Mary K.Pope

Sorry Betty, I have no experience training stock dogs (my grandfather had a ton of it). I just recommended what would be my ordinary strategy for his issue. I haven't been on here for some time and didn't know what you are doing with him.

However, generally speaking, make sure that there are no distractions (especially Pinker) when you are beginning to train him. I am mentioning this because you said that the problem behavior itself has been marked and treated ... this seems to infer that Pinker is present during training.

Have fun on your adventure, he sounds like a great pup!

Betty, seeing this got me thinking a bit. Scary huh!
Are you training the stock work by yourself? Is there anyone in the area that could give you a few pointers on the stock dog work?
I know many dogs have great instincts for the work but guidance to do it correctly can be HUGE in the dog's learning process.

I also agree that it should be just you and the pup when you train.

How's it going, Betty?

Well, it's not going too great. I'm not feeling too into the new pup.

I have been charged by my docile gentle cows while trying to just walk the pup out amongst them doing random checking. New pup looks like a coyote in sillouette. I have been admonished that the pup can't be with the cattle at all until he is 2-3 yrs old. I have been told by people who know that my cattle must not be dog broke. Well, the oldest cows knew Sooner my old ACD who was a serious dog, but she was never predatory, when she said move you moved but she certainly didn't "eye" the cows. Plus, a dog has been moving the herd for 2 yrs, he just isn't a very powerful dog. He moves them without terrifying them. Works for me!

Play between the pup and Pinker also aggravates Pinkers old elbow problems. So I have to limit play.
I was ready to take the dog back but my husband has fallen in love with him. Of course my husband lives in the hospital essentially.
So that's it in a nutshell.
Plus I have 25 acres of the most beautiful hay you ever saw getting rained on as we speak so I am in a foul humor!

Oh man, Betty Keep your head up! (The hay made me inwardly groan- that is a terrible feeling) I think there are weeks where we have all doubted our capabilities/compatability/resolve when a new situation presents itself, but I have faith you can make it through to the rainbow on the other side Remember, puppyhood will become a blip of time in this new guy's life and I think you have what it takes to make him an amazing sidekick. I hope the rain passes quickly and the sun will shine on all of you again soon!

I don't know how much this will help, but I do remember that Pinker had a rocky start that you overcame.

with respect to the " eye " thing betty , i would approach it this way : if the pups' focus on pinker is such that he won't turn his attention to you when you ask for it , that is a sign he's doing ( a ) too much of it , and ( b ) you are not doing enough to make him want to be engaged with you .

having said that , remember that he is still a pup , and that the engagement " skills " are learned and developed over time , so keep an eye on trends as they present themselves .

as for pinker himself , if the " eye " doesn't bother him , it shouldn't bother you . again , remember that the pup is looking ( anywhere ) for opportunities to develop his herding skills , so if pinker is an unaffected participant , i'd leave it alone .

Pinker was TERRIBLE the worst pup ever, fearful, quick with the angry bite.

This pup is doggy and sweet. He just wants to eat cows, the job he is bred for.He's supposedly valuable. He strikes fear in the heart of cows, an asset if you want cows to move away from you.
So if he can't fit in, someone else will want him. Which is great.

The Pinker is the best dog I ever owned.
You should have this guy, Amy. His 1/2 sister is moving dairy heifers and 2 adult bulls (dairy bulls) thru pens daily, evidently the aussies at that place have taken to lying on the lawn.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

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You should have this guy, Amy. His 1/2 sister is moving dairy heifers and 2 adult bulls (dairy bulls) thru pens daily, evidently the aussies at that place have taken to lying on the lawn.

No more for me...yet! I have often pondered the benefits of letting dogs move our cows towards the parlor and in between pens and the husband agrees that it would likely reduce stress in them but he fears that illness or injury could be overloked in the early stages if the workers were able to sit back and "dirrect traffic" Just the words Dairy Bull strike fear in my heart, though we have had some success with the ones we have raised using Temple Granlin's socialization protocols. All of our girls are AIed, so we just keep one bull in case something slips. Don't think I could handle more than one of those buggers. Have been thinking about throwing "Dallas" our angus in there so we don't have to worry so much!

quote=Bob Scott Are you training the stock work by yourself? Is there anyone in the area that could give you a few pointers on the stock dog work? I know many dogs have great instincts for the work but guidance to do it correctly can be HUGE in the dog's learning process.I also agree that it should be just you and the pup when you train.