He is talking about Ed's "pack structure for adult dogs" protocol.

 Quote: Eujon Sellers

We've recently started watching the Leerburg video on establishing pack leadership with adult dogs ...

"Boot camp" was just a nickname.


It is a positive thing.

As you see by the responses to the crate issue, the pack leadership protocol is easily modified to suit the dogs and the owners concerned.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

 Quote: Eujon Sellers

Connie, as far as specific issues, the main reason is that my wife and I are planning on having children soon. Our GSD has been around kids before and does pretty good but there are points where his prey drive kicks in (usually when the kids are excited or running) where he tries to basically herd them. This is something that we realize is part of his breed, but at the same time we'd like to get to a point where he understands when this is ok and when it is not.

Putting the dogs, especially 9 year old senior dogs, through "doggie bootcamp" seems a bit excessive, in fact it could cause a whole lot of stress when you plan to bring human babies into the picture.

Sounds like your dogs are well behaved, and good house dogs. If it is about introducing a baby then think about how the household will change (really think) when the baby arrives and acclimate the dogs to that before it happens. When the baby comes things will be stressful, prepare the canines. If it is done well and as a POSITIVE thing (vs someone freaking out and getting annoyed with the dogs that have lived there for years) the dogs will accept and protect the baby as one of their own.

Why boot camp? Is someone suggesting that the dogs can't live around a baby so you are trying to make them perfect? If the dog knows the baby from birth and sees baby as a positive family member I just don't see the prey drive kicking in when the kid starts running around. Now when the child is old enough to have friends over and they start screaming and running around like mad, if there is a problem fence off a "children's yard" and let the kids go at it.

Sonya, the older dogs are pretty good. They do tend to get pretty excited when we have guests and have lost their manners when leaving for walks but that falls on us for not making sure rules are followed. The younger GSD I think does pretty well given what we have provided for him but I don't think he's living life as he would want and is not the proud GSD I think he can really be.

Nobody is suggesting the boot camp but us because we'd like to get back to where we were a few years ago where are dogs were very well behaved, that's it. We're not people looking to put our dogs through some sort of horrible ordeal just to get them to act like robots, which is one of the reasons I came to the forum to ask the question about the crate.

so eujon , what have you done to work through this ?

while i am in agreement with those who have said to lay off the crate , it is something that you can be working on , just like you would any other behaviour . . . they are all a work in progress .

the comfort that comes from knowing you can put your dog in his crate without worry is valuable .

in my mind , i got a bit of an advantage going in , in that henry was shipped to me from across the country . i think the comfort that he found in the crate during what must have been , at the very least , a mildly unsettling adventure , set the foundation for his relationship with his crate , a relationship that i have taken every opportunity to strengthen .

whenever i take henry out of his crate , food goes in , so that every time he expects there will be something good in there for him when he returns . as well , we use the crate for the beginnings of fetch and retrieve , and use it for food chasing games . i used it for the very first " wait " commands , both going in and coming out , so there was more food / good times associated with the crate .

i think you will have to be very patient . use the dogs' hunger to your best advantage and go in very small steps with no pressure or stress added from the handler .

Ian, for the crate training with the GSD we honestly just gave up since he was doing good in the house. We at first purchased a large plastic airline crate from the shelter where we got him from and tried to just ease him into it. We would start with treats to get him in and let him come out when he felt like it. For about 2 weeks we just left the crate in our living room with the door open so that he could go into it as he pleased (which he did). After that we started closing the door on him, at first for maybe just a few seconds. This is where we started to notice how his anxiety would kick in right away, it's like once that door shuts something happens and he starts getting anxious, even if we're sitting right there in front of him.

We got to the point where he would still be anxious but not really freaking out or anything so we setup or video camera and left the house for about 5 minutes. We wanted to record how he reacted which ended up being a good thing. We watched the video when we came back and saw him trying to claw and bite his way out, at one point locking his jaws onto the front bars of the crate. This is why we're worried that he could potentially hurt himself if left alone. After that we gave up on the smaller crate and built a kennel in our basement hoping that if we had all three dogs together the GSD would not be as anxious. This sort of worked but there were a few times where we came home to find out that he had escaped so he obviously was not happy about that setup either. As much as I hate to admit it because I'm sure someone will say something, we finally just put everything "dangerous" in the house away and left them all out while we went to grab our mail (about 10 minutes maybe). That worked so we just kept bumping it up in length until we eventually could leave him alone all day. The funny thing was we had tried that way before all of this and he trashed our kitchen so it's pretty funny that now he's totally fine and has been for 8+ months.

It sounds like maybe we should just continue down the pack building path without the crate but at the same time work on trying to get him over his fear of it slowly. It really would be great to get him to a point where he is calm in there, especially for road trips, but it's not something we are 100% set on. We really just want to re-establish the pack structure as it should be and start working with them again on the basic obedience that they should have.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

If the dog knows the baby from birth and sees baby as a positive family member I just don't see the prey drive kicking in when the kid starts running around. Now when the child is old enough to have friends over and they start screaming and running around like mad, if there is a problem fence off a "children's yard" and let the kids go at it.

Sorry, I have to hijack for a second and address this comment. Dogs with prey drive will chase things that move fast- like kids. Whether they know the kid or not- their prey drive is still intact- in a GSD it can be pretty darn high. GSDs and Mals, Border Collies- the HERDING group- sometimes also try to herd kids and may often nip at heels when doing so.

Dogs are taken through the pack structure protocol so that they LEARN when it's appropriate to chase/ herd and when it's not. They don't instinctively know not to chase the human kid that's running around swinging a balloon... even if he's known the kid from birth.

I also don't like the idea of fencing off a part of the yard to let the kids do whatever. If the dog is out, this is one sure fire way to make the dog go crazy.. it's like teasing him with fun play that he's not allowed to take part in. It will raise the frustration level of the dog, and over time, you may end up with a fence runner. I've got 2 Mals and a GSD that would be neurotic messes if I did that to them.

If the kids are playing in the yard, put the dog in the house if he's not allowed to take part.

Now, to the OP:

Having dogs that will go into crates willingly and without anxiety makes life a LOT easier. Since your GSD is so afraid of it right now, I would take it slow, but I would eventually want him to accept the crate. You just never know when a dog will have to be crated or confined in a small space- the vet's office comes to mind off hand...

I have an 11 year old rescue named Shyner. She is terrified of everything... doors, the car, things that make loud noises... you name it, it will scare her. Even she is crate trained.. it took me about a year to do it, and I spent more time in the crate myself than I care to mention, but she accepts it now as her safe place- she goes there when it storms.

Since your dog is OK in the house, I wouldn't push the crate issue to the point of where it scares him, but I would crate train him. Start by feeding him in there. Door open- food, yummy treats that he only gets in his crate. Slow, slow, baby steps... like I said it took Shyner a year.

I commend you for addressing this stuff now, before you have a baby in the house. Babies add stress to everyone in the house- that's why I think it's important that the dog have a place to go that is safe for him- the crate is the logical place...

Just my 2 cents- take it for what it is...

--Kelly

good on ya for putting in the effort there eujon , but imo , you gave up way too early .

5 minutes might have been a too much of a leap in time duration , and seeing him bite at the bars is tough to watch , but he might have soon figured out that wasn't going to get him his freedom . of course there are some mals ( i knew one ) who could quite happily make it their lifes' work to get out of a crate , but most dogs will eventually accept their place in the crate . as the above poster said , you have to be very patient .

i think you will be glad the dog has his place once the baby arrives .

Thank you everyone for the tips, suggestions and just for participating in the conversation itself. I hope to come back here in a few months (probably longer haha) and report back on how well everything is going. In the meantime I'll be searching all over the site for tips on training down the road!

You should also feel totally free to post questions. :-)

BTW, I agree that 5 minutes is a big jump in duration.

For example, when I have a separation anxiety type, I might start by standing outside for a few seconds and popping in before any reaction can happen. (Among other reasons, I don't want to reward freaking out.)

When I worked away from home, I would try hard to start on this kind of thing when I had time (days) off.

Rather than this: "We got to the point where he would still be anxious but not really freaking out or anything so we setup or video camera and left the house for about 5 minutes. We wanted to record how he reacted which ended up being a good thing," I'd rather work on very gradually increasing the time that he does not freak out, starting with not giving him any time at all to react before I open the door.

I can find old posts really describing the tiny increments if that would be useful to you.