My down is down until I say ok also. I don't use stay very often, only in certain circumstances which usually involve sit.

Bob, I'd love any further description you want to add when it comes to doing this. If he stays (down) really well in every other situation, then don't I have to start the Michael training WITH Michael? but if Michael the huge distraction, then how do you start slowly? would that be duration? i.e. sit on the floor with Michael and put Kasey on down, only expecting Kasey to down for a short time and working up to it? if so, then what would you do with Kasey after the short down - put him in another room?

I guess my concern is that Kasey is so nice to Michael and he obviously wants as much attention from me as Michael is getting, so if I put him in another room will it escalate how much Kasey wants my attention? Just for the record, the amount of time Kasey tries to get my attention by bringing a ball or putting his head in my lap, is a whole lot less when Michael is not here - he is not a 'spoiled' dog that gets what he wants when he wants it, and he's not demanding about it. But he loves my attention and if Michael is getting it, then he wants some too. If Michael is in my lap and we're reading a book for instance (on the floor), then Kasey will want his head in my lap too. If we're in a chair reading, Kasey just lays at my feet. But I want to be able to sit on the floor and not have Kasey competing for attention.

Sorry that was long, just wanted to make the situation clear.

I have euthanized loving warm hearted dogs who have hurt grandchildren, held by broken hearted owners. I'd just raise a warning that your dog needs to remember his place ------to keep the dog safe, so he can stay in the family, and watch the child grow.
I don't mean to be overly dramatic. But I'd make him mind like a police dog whenever he's around that baby. If he can't mind he cannot be near. He is NOT to compete. He cannot be between you and the baby. The baby is YOURS.

How I teach a down.
first the dog has to know the command. Once that happens I add distractions/duration/distance but, as Connie said NEVER at the same time. I generally add time first because adding distance is more apt to cause the dog to break.
Even when I'm standing right in front of the dog I will "RANDOMLY" give a treat. I don't mark these treats simply because my marker is also a release.
When I start adding distance it may be just a few feet. I continue to go back and reward "without a marker" and do it "RANDOMLY".
When I have enough distance with me still in sight of the dog I start returning "randomly" and not always all the way back to the dog. sometimes just a few steps towards the dog, sometimes all the way to it, sometimes halfway to it.
Then I start walking to the dog and going back to basic position. sometimes I go back and walk right by the dog. sometimes I go back to the dog and go around it and then I go right back to my place. That "place" should also be random. sometimes I run to the dog, run past it, jump over it.
ALL of these things I do I will still give a "random" treat to the dog.
Do you see a pattern here? EVERYTHING IS DONE RANDOMLY but nothing is added till the dog is solid on the simple things. Your dog's big distraction is the child. When things are really starting to fall together you may do some of this holding the child.
ANYTIME you add distance then you shorten back up on time and ease up on distraction.
Every time you add time then you shorten up on distance and distraction.
Every time you add a new distraction you shorten up on time and distance.
You never want the dog to see any sort of pattern behavior from you. This creates anticipation. Anticipation creates movement from the dog.
Don't ask for to much of the dog when you add any of the distance/time/distraction and continue to reward "randomly"
If the dog still breaks then your going to fast.
When the child is used as a distraction then be sure to shorten up on the time and distance.
Hope this makes sense!

Ditto on the "stay" command. AKC ob wants it, Schutzhund doesn't. Bottom line is the dog is to hold whatever position with your command only. "Stay" is redundant!

Thank you so much Bob! I'll spend some time reviewing things with kasey first and then add in tiny Michael distractions.

While we're on the topic of down. What's the best way to get them to just drop where they stand - sometimes if I say down and I'm a few feet away he will go down quickly, but kind of take a couple tiny steps before going down and at the same time sprawl out so that he ends up a lot closer than I want him to be. This happens mostly when I'm going to fix his meals and I want him to be down and further back.

Throw the treat between his forelegs and chest onto the floor.

amen. I had a little dog, a toy poodle. this was before I knew anything about packs or how to really train your dog. He was darling. when very little he got his back leg broken when one of the dogs jumped on it from the couch. Since he weighed about 3-4 pounds at 8 weeks, he had to be carried, he couldn't walk with the cast on. Yep, can you see where this was going. All was well and he heeled up, time passed and little did I know I had told him he was on equal footing with me just by caring him around. He was little and wasn't a bad dog, and I regret I didn't train him when he was little due to the cast, my ignorance. Then came grand children. He was good with them while they were little babies, never had a problem, but as they ran and played and wanted more of my attention....we changed his name from buddy to bubby ben laden. He began trying to dominate our other dogs, even though he was tiny, and he didn't like the kids coming up to talk with us if he was there. I didn't know the right things to do. As a result he grew older and grouchier. Soon if my granddaughter just walked past he was snapping. I had no choice but to put him down, by this time he was about 14 years old. We did our best with what we knew, we kept him separate from the kids when they came over. But if we would have started out right, it could have ended much better.
I agree with what has been written. I had great regrets that I let my dog down by not establishing my authority. It was horrible to take him and put him down even though he was old.
If I had to do it over again, I would do everything differently. It may be alot of work, but it is an act of love toward your dog and your family. that lesson has caused me to study about training and pack structure. Now my three pups are well behaved and love the grandkids but know their place. Also, I never allowed my grandkids or anyone else to maul my dogs, or play rough at all with them. Or bend over them to give them kisses. Disaster!!!!

I hope this helps from someone who has been there.

(l know it seems silly with a dog so small, but let me tell you little dogs can be fierce!)

sharon

I know all about being the pack leader, and we do not allow Kasey to be the one in charge. He is CGC trained, he's the last one out the door, the last one in, he doesn't get anything - attention, meals, etc. - without a sit or down and 'wait'. This is a dog that you can take a chicken back out of his mouth while he's in the middle of eating it and he lets you have it. Vets can do anything to him and he just wags his tail and licks them (they always say he's their favorite!) He has been taught all these things since the day we brought him home.

I'm sure all dogs have an area of their life that is a big distraction for them and needs further training and practice. I'm not in denial that dogs are not predictable - Michael and Kasey are never left alone and Kasey is not allowed to get his way. I just needed some advice on how to direct Kasey when we are all on the floor. This is not an out of control dog we're talking about. (I'm not saying any of this in a defensive tone, just want to be clear on the situation )

Hey Lori, Kasey is a mature dog now, right? Do you do formal ob at all, or plan to?

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Lori, Kasey is a mature dog now, right? Do you do formal ob at all, or plan to?

I have not done 'formal' ob. I learned training while raising dogs for Guide Dogs of America some years back, but with Kasey it's been training on my own using some of Ed's videos.

The only reason I asked about formal ob is because I like to have a casual down, settle, thats more like a place command, separate of my formal down. Its not a real big deal in this though, I don't think.

With our kids and dogs, what I liked was not letting my dog come forward to the baby. I'd put a mat or rug down and teach Kasey not to leave it. No creeping. He can shift around, get comfortable, but no leaving the mat. The way he gets to have contact of any kind with the baby is when I bring the baby over and hold him. Its my baby, not a distraction.

Being pushy, stuff like that tends to escalate into problems like being less then gentle with those little fingers, that kind of thing.