 Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368095 - 10/18/2012 10:46 PM |
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 I think I see a light bulb glowing in the distance!
NOW get on that back chaining so you can get a clean out/release.  
Use MARKERS and reward the clean front sit and then the clean out. Vary them. Sometimes mark and reward the front sit. More times then not reward the dog for holding his sit position after he outs.
If you looking into Schutzhund you can't lose sight of what's down the road or you can easily create unneeded problems down the line.
Example
You reward for the out but don't don't reward for holding the sit after the out often enough. Soon the dog anticipates the reward for the out and moves. Anticipation creates movement!
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#368105 - 10/19/2012 08:50 AM |
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If you looking into Schutzhund you can't lose sight of what's down the road
To take this point a step further;
Later you will need to add a silent "hold-it" before the "out", so that the dog will hold the item quietly until you take it. By having taught the dog the retrieve with back-chaining, you will have laid the foundation to go back and teach the hold.
Another example:
I needed to improve my dog's recall, but I kept in mind that I would need a front-sit for schutzhund. I abandoned "come" for general use and added other commands for calling or redirecting her. I started using "come" up close,with zero distraction, and rewarding only for a clean, square front. Once she accepted this, I took it outside and started adding distance and distractions alternately.
Sadie |
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368122 - 10/19/2012 01:47 PM |
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O.K. guys. I don't have an actual tug yet(going to order one now). I have only been using a rag or towel. At training he's been biting the sock(think that's what it's called) and now starting to transition to the pillow. We've done this I think 3 or 4 times so far. So I was excited about trying what you said, so I decided to reward with a treat instead of the tug when he outs or sits right in front of me or comes to me. So he's doing all three well. Sometimes the out isn't instant but I don't mark until the instant he outs. However, he goes into training mode and starts to not hold the ball at all when he approaches me. He just drops it because he knows a treat is coming. He is very very food driven. So should I just stop altogether until I get an actual tug?
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368123 - 10/19/2012 02:25 PM |
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By the way, anyone have a suggestion which tug to order?
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368124 - 10/19/2012 02:50 PM |
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Sometimes the out isn't instant but I don't mark until the instant he outs. However, he goes into training mode and starts to not hold the ball at all when he approaches me. He just drops it because he knows a treat is coming. He is very very food driven. So should I just stop altogether until I get an actual tug?
The actual item itself (tug) shouldn't make a difference, as he has not been rewarded in this fashion, correct? I would stick to food until you get this sorted out.
If you're not marking until he outs, then why would he be anticipating a treat coming? Even though you think he's good on the bring, front, and out, you need to backchain from the out. Put him in a front/sit and give him the training item (most young dogs start with a ball), let him hold it for a couple of seconds, then "out". Do this for awhile until he learns to hold it until you out. He drops it, "uh-uh, try again". Do not mark for an out if he's dropping the toy before the command. When you start short retrieves, don't take the ball when he comes in. Make him hold it until you "out".
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368125 - 10/19/2012 02:48 PM |
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Also, Kory, I wouldn't be mixing recall and retrieve. Don't recall him when you want him to bring the ball. When you are ready to add a command to the retrieve, use bring or fetch (or any word).
Back chain the retrieve and don't command a front or sit. That way you're not marking the sit. When he comes in with the toy, he'll pbly sit, as this is the foundation that you've created. He brings the ball and wants to get his treat, let him hold the toy for a sec, then out, regardless of position. You can add the front and sit to it later.
Sadie |
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368127 - 10/19/2012 04:24 PM |
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The problem is he doesn't hold the ball. He just drops it with no out command. He started doing that totally on his own when we were playing two ball. So I can't even get to an out command. It wouldn't even matter if I had no treats or another ball. He just drops it anyway.
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368131 - 10/19/2012 05:50 PM |
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368134 - 10/19/2012 06:33 PM |
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We were sitting at dinner and it hit me that you guys were going to say teach the hold first. So I stayed inside and tried that after dinner and I can't get him to be calm enough to start. He sees the ball and is so driven that he won't hold it calm at all. He's mouthing it like crazy spinning around in circles wanting me to play with him. I did start taking hold of the string and pulling but not tugging, waited for him to release it and mark and reward. My timing wasn't great some of the time, so I'm not sure if I made any progress or not.
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Re: Playing ball with Marco
[Re: Kory Fox ]
#368139 - 10/19/2012 07:39 PM |
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i'd be trying with a different item kory . something like a tug where you can hold it absolutely motionless to bring his drive into check .
the ball ( on a string ? ) is too hard to maintain control which doesn't allow him to take a calm hold of the object . a tug gives a clear and easy presentation to the dog .
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