Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Steph Schneider ]
#370700 - 12/17/2012 02:33 AM |
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Steph,
You have received a lot of good advice already. But, I would like to add, that I seriously doubt presenting a good article will change this kind of attitude. I would get a crate that you can lock and hold on to the key (chain around your neck). Put your dog in there when you can't care for the dog yourself. When you are there and available, I would have him/her on a leash in my personal custody. And, in my case, there would be real trouble if any one hit my dog.
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Steph Schneider ]
#370702 - 12/17/2012 08:26 AM |
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Being a hard-headed, hard-cased middle aged man, I'm not sure that confronting these guys or getting defensive with them will get you anywhere but in an argument, with them being dismissive of others peoples' opinions. Neither will pointing at some article or quoting some dog whisperer's anecdotes.
If I were you, I'd have an extremely serious conversation with my husband, but I would disguise it as an appeal to him. Pull your husband aside and ask him to talk to the father. Tell him that you wish for them to understand that you don't want to take a chance on making your dog hand-shy or handler fearful. Tell him that you think your dog is not hard enough for that type of correction and that there is something else you would like to try, if they would just be patient and not interfere. Of course, this means that you will have to follow through and take the lead, but I think that's what you really want anyway.
Be nice but firm. Don't back down, but don't start a conflict, either.
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Steph Schneider ]
#370705 - 12/17/2012 08:44 AM |
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I agree with Duane and would go one further. After having that conversation, if/when it happens once more and I see that my words had no affect, I'd pack my dog up and live in my car. I don't presume to set rules in someone else's house. I agree completely that treating any animal this is very unacceptable behavior, even more so once you point out your need to have it stop, but I think seeing a spouse move out and endure sleeping in a car for a few days would be a rude awakening and punctuate the severity of your concerns.
Good luck.... hopefully it doesn't escalate to the point of the dog feeling the need to defend itself
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#370708 - 12/17/2012 09:57 AM |
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Being a hard-headed, hard-cased middle aged man, I'm not sure that confronting these guys or getting defensive with them will get you anywhere but in an argument, with them being dismissive of others peoples' opinions. Neither will pointing at some article or quoting some dog whisperer's anecdotes.
If I were you, I'd have an extremely serious conversation with my husband, but I would disguise it as an appeal to him. Pull your husband aside and ask him to talk to the father. Tell him that you wish for them to understand that you don't want to take a chance on making your dog hand-shy or handler fearful. Tell him that you think your dog is not hard enough for that type of correction and that there is something else you would like to try, if they would just be patient and not interfere. Of course, this means that you will have to follow through and take the lead, but I think that's what you really want anyway.
Be nice but firm. Don't back down, but don't start a conflict, either.
It goes against everything in me, because I'd be out of there with a big ol' door slam, but you make very good points.
Of critical importance is not to create anger or resentment against the dog, who is already in a very bad position.
When I've seen animal abuse in the past, I've had to force myself to stop and think: What will help the animal? What will NOT increase the abuse as soon as I turn away?
I'd be making an enormous point of the fact that neither you nor your husband wants your dog to become afraid of humans ... everything posted about this above is true. What a terrible thing to do to your child. This kind of stuff ends up with an innocent frightened dog put down through no fault of his own, because he can't be trusted around a child.
And I do NOT want my child to see or be near animal abuse anyway. To learn as first life lessons to hit something smaller when we're angry? No .....
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Steph Schneider ]
#370709 - 12/17/2012 11:22 AM |
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Hey Steph, you've received some excellent advice and I'm glad you're here asking.
It sounds like a difficult time for you and your husband and unfortunately our dogs have no choice when they're caught up in our struggles.
My husband and I got together over 25 years ago and had it not been for his similar or even exceeding compassion towards animals, our union would not have happened. And thank goodness because we were struggling young'ins too but we always had our trusting companions there, taking our minds off our worries and providing that all important link to true happiness.
And if he took up the practice today of ever laying a hand on a animal in anger, I would have serious concerns as to what may going on with him.
Unless in self-defense or a battle of strength between two consenting adults, there is no reason to lay a violent hand on anyone, man or beast. Violence simply begets more violence and the cycles begin.
To me, corrections are a timely and appropriate exchange of knowledge. Not implied to force ones will but to share in the learning process.
Steph, are you able to share some of the scenarios where your father in law thinks it's appropriate to be hitting your dog?
When criticizing people or attempting to provide constructive feedback, it can be quite confrontational for a younger person (well any person really) to be telling an older man his actions are wrong.
Being prepared with an alternate solution that works may be a first step in helping him change his ways.
If he was completely unresponsive to anything I was saying, this is the day and age of video equipment. Maybe he doesn't realize the magnitude of what he's doing and seeing himself on video, in a more relaxed state, beating a dog, may be enough to change his ways.
If nothing else, in most areas, depending on the extent, dog abuse is against the law.
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: CJ Barrett ]
#370711 - 12/17/2012 11:56 AM |
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I agree this is crucial:
"Of critical importance is not to create anger or resentment against the dog, who is already in a very bad position.
When I've seen animal abuse in the past, I've had to force myself to stop and think: What will help the animal? What will NOT increase the abuse as soon as I turn away?"
And this:
"Steph, are you able to share some of the scenarios where your father in law thinks it's appropriate to be hitting your dog?"
If we knew what kinds of behavior prompt the hitting and smacking, we may be able to offer suggestions on how to eliminate or manage that behavior. (In no way meant to suggest any of this is the dog's fault! But there may be ways of keeping him safer until you can move out.)
Steph, I know it took courage for you to post on a public board and ask for suggestions. You've gotten some great advice from Duane, Connie, CJ and others. I would just say I know you love your dog, and you know that he relies on you to protect him and keep him safe.
It's unfortunate you are having to live with your abusive FIL at this time, and even sadder that your husband is now becoming abusive, too. You have yourself, your dog, and now your unborn baby to look after. Do what you need to do to stop this abuse now, because you know being hit and smacked is just the first step in causing this dog to become fearful and possibly biting in self-defense, and then it's a short road to being PTS.
FWIW, you and I live in the same county, and there are many resources available where you can get help, if it comes to that.
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Cheri Grissom ]
#370735 - 12/17/2012 05:10 PM |
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I think it is important to note that any "conversation" about this subject will likely make the accused go on the defensive, and that is where learning and compromise stops.
Of great importance for issues like this is to understand where the other person is coming from (even if you vehemently disagree). People who beat does for obedience reasons DO NOT THINK THEY ARE ABUSING the animal. These people were more often than not raised with the mindset that you hit animals if they misbehave. In addition, THEY THEMSELVES were probably hit when they misbehaved as a child. They think this is normal and don't think there is anything wrong with it.
If one can keep that in mind, it will be easier and more effective to have a constructive conversation regarding the training of this animal.
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: John Vanek ]
#370737 - 12/17/2012 05:21 PM |
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I think it is important to note that any "conversation" about this subject will likely make the accused go on the defensive, and that is where learning and compromise stops.
Of great importance for issues like this is to understand where the other person is coming from (even if you vehemently disagree). People who beat does for obedience reasons DO NOT THINK THEY ARE ABUSING the animal. These people were more often than not raised with the mindset that you hit animals if they misbehave. In addition, THEY THEMSELVES were probably hit when they misbehaved as a child. They think this is normal and don't think there is anything wrong with it.
If one can keep that in mind, it will be easier and more effective to have a constructive conversation regarding the training of this animal.
Perhaps a key might be the very real danger of having a dog who has learned to fear and mistrust humans around the child (as well as the related example to the child of hitting a dog).
And learning about marker training together ..... this is training that relies on timing, positive reinforcement, and fair corrections (way down the line, when the dog knows a command inside out) ..... hitting a dog "until he does what you want" would completely negate all the good that marker training does.
And there's also the thing, which everyone goes back to for a reason, about "no one else corrects my dog." Related to this is the fact that opposed "methods" result in a dog who can't be trained ..... who is confused, no longer trusting, and frightened ...... and who will shut down in confusion (or much worse).
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Steph Schneider ]
#370763 - 12/17/2012 11:14 PM |
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Hi Steph! I am the owner of a hard-headed husband He never had an indoor dog (and had never met a dog NOT trained with physical force before we met.) To his credit, he was too young to train any of his family dogs and never got into the habit of hitting them but we had conversations regarding training methods and I found that playing off his strengths worked well. Something to the effect of:
"I understand why you would think that using physical force is a quick fix (even if you don't) but really, you have so many more tools to use! You are smart and persistant and that is exactly what _____ (insert dog's name) needs to become the perfect family dog. I know you can get him to listen even better if we switch gears and work together. I need you to try it for me. Give it 6 months of teamwork and then we will talk about it again. I have my plans for training all written here:" (hand over training plan and guidelines - I wouldn't call them rules until he is completely on the same page for a while. That's just asking for a challenge!) If he flat out refuses, then tell him it is a deal-breaker. He has to at least make the effort.
Then comes 6 months of hard work (mostly from you, but incorporate him into marker training enough to make the dog a little excited about him and listening- use REEEEALY good treats for the husband training sessions ) And don't forget to tell him how much you appreciate him working with you. Compliment, point out good changes in the dog and him and make a BIG deal of it when he is trying. I'm not saying there won't be setbacks, but I know he can change it if he cares about your feelings on the issue. Wishing you the best in your quest to help him become a different trainer!
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Re: smacking or hitting
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#370765 - 12/18/2012 02:44 AM |
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And learning about marker training together ..... this is training that relies on timing, positive reinforcement, and fair corrections
I'd just like to point out that operant conditioning principles don't change for different species. Two legged animals often respond just as well to marker training as the four legged animal does.
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