Quote: ian bunbury

you shouldn't be worrying about putting things on " cue " at this point .

many , many , many reps luring , basically muscle memory imprinted before you put a name to it and expect the dog to comply .

Have you already named it and are saying the command and expecting him to do it?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: ian bunbury

you shouldn't be worrying about putting things on " cue " at this point .

many , many , many reps luring , basically muscle memory imprinted before you put a name to it and expect the dog to comply .

Have you already named it and are saying the command and expecting him to do it?

Yes.

Ah. Do you get what Ian is saying about "you shouldn't be worrying about putting things on cue at this point" and going much too fast?

wrong . . .

you are going way too fast with a four month old puppy .

you need to have full engagement with the dog before you start expecting OB behaviours .

other things to do ?

use food to lure the dog over things , under things , through things , through your legs , up on a park bench , play around childrens' playgrounds . . . basically anything you can imagine that the dog is physically capable of can be used to build engagement .

one other thing with respect to the training you are undertaking . . the physical cues will override verbal cues , so the movements that you use to lure the dog into positions , or behaviours , or movements , become part of the routine that the dog expects from you , just as you expect things from him . with that in mind , you need to be very consistent in all of your behaviours when you are engaging with the pup .

and while i'm on the track , be mindful that just because a dog performs any given task in one environment or set of circumstances , does not mean he will perform that same behaviour if even one element of the scenario changes .

I see.one more thing if I want to follow Michael's steps he teaches the sit, down from stand, stand from sit..... ok how do I get properly do the second position. Down from a stand if he is already sitting. Do I move backwards to have him stand? What I do now I lure him forward from a stand and then once up I lure him down.

you know junior , think of it like this . . . you are trying to teach advanced calculus to a one year old child .

sure it can be done , but why would you ? boring as hell , and certainly not something a one year old needs to know how to do . time spent on this stuff is time that could be spent on things the dog will actually want to do .

take advantage of the imagination and enthusiasm of youth to play with the dog , have fun with him and once you have true engagement with the dog , behaviours like sit , stand and down will be so damn easy , you'll wonder why you were working so hard at something that the pup wasn't even ready or willing to learn , yet . set the foundation for that more formal training that comes later by establishing engagement now .

at the risk of arming you with knowledge the dog doesn't want you to have ( LOL ) , you get " stand " by moving into the dogs space from a sit .

but believe me , there are way better , and more fun things you could / should be doing with the pup at this point .

Have fun with your puppy. Engagement Engagement and more Engaement.Take him everywhere and play with him. Food, tugs, balls, and more fun.

Junior;

One thing Ian alluded to previously is that you build the foundation thru engagement, not by teaching commands: the commands will come later. When you watch the videos, don't watch what the dog does is in relation to the command. Observe the demeanor of the dog. The videos of ME and Cindy that you mentioned earlier are excellent examples of how a puppy stays in tune and communicates with you. http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/245/Cindy's_New_Puppy,_Endy,_Working_Engagement_at_13_Weeks

You don't hear many commands. What the dogs are learning, more than commands, is the behavior that the handler is luring. As you repeat these behaviors, the dog will learn to read your cues. You will be giving off these same clues when you add the command, and the dog will already know what you expect.

Another thing you have to keep in mind is the difference between age and "training age"; You may think that, because Cindy's 4mo old puppy can perform a behavior, that your 4mo pup should be able to do the same thing. This is not necessarily so. Cindy's dog has been raised with a communication system. 95% of his life has been in this system, whereas your dog is just starting out, and is an infant within the system. My dog was 2.5yo when I got her a year and a half ago. She had no training foundation, so it's as if she's 1.5yo when it comes to training. She is about where you would expect a 1.5yo dog to be had she been raised in a training program.

 Quote: Junior alva

I see.one more thing if I want to follow Michael's steps he teaches the sit, down from stand, stand from sit..... ok how do I get properly do the second position. Down from a stand if he is already sitting. Do I move backwards to have him stand? What I do now I lure him forward from a stand and then once up I lure him down.

The positions aren't taught in any order. You should teach them randomly, and practice them randomly. The dog will start to anticipate and cycle through them if you make it a routine.
Luring the stand should be done by stepping slightly towards the dog, causing him to rise. In the past I had lured it by standing in front of the dog and moving the bait away, but with the dog I have now it has created a dog that thinks "stand" means rise and step forward. I am having to remedial work to correct it.

"You should teach them randomly, and practice them randomly."

And in different places at different times .....

And thus avoid patterns.