I went to a Ian Dunbar seminar some time in the early 80s.
Your comment on him being dedicated to sociable family dogs is dead on. that's the huge difference in the "approach" you see between what Ed/Cindy promote coming from a working dog background. I lean heavily towards Ed/Cindy's approach.
Nothing wrong with either but it's a choice you make depending on your wants and needs in raising your dog.

keeping in mind that I am no dog trainer and have made a lot of mistakes in raising Tanka which I am trying to fix. I did do some things great with him. I thought I was totally ready to bring home an 8 week old working dog and I had Mr Dunbar's book in hand. (I laugh now)

This was a result of the people and dog socialization, although keeping in mind other factors that could have changed the outcome, but I didn't know them.

I am obviously a proponent of socializing your puppy. Tanka got to play with all kinds of other puppies at puppy classes and he loves other dogs, small animals, but he thinks everyone is there to be played with. SO now I am trying to fix the behavior I taught him was acceptable. Way overboard on making other dogs a game.

he also got to greet and be fawned over by everyone I could get to do it. We are just beginning to get over the idea in his mind that everyone is not going to do that, nor is it the acceptable behavior. There are some pitfalls that aren't outlined in the book. Needless to say more people wanted to fawn over 15 pound rottie puppy than 109 pound rottie adult. But you get the idea. He expects it, and tries his best to get it from people who speak to him.

Just a thought on what can happen without a complete set of directions to go with the proposed activities. I turn everyone I talk to who has a dog onto this website. And the countless articles, dvd's and videos. I still have Dunbar's book, but the info in there has to be tempered with some other info, IMHO. J

 Quote: Julie Sloan

keeping in mind that I am no dog trainer and have made a lot of mistakes in raising Tanka which I am trying to fix. I did do some things great with him. I thought I was totally ready to bring home an 8 week old working dog and I had Mr Dunbar's book in hand. (I laugh now)

This was a result of the people and dog socialization, although keeping in mind other factors that could have changed the outcome, but I didn't know them.

I am obviously a proponent of socializing your puppy. Tanka got to play with all kinds of other puppies at puppy classes and he loves other dogs, small animals, but he thinks everyone is there to be played with. SO now I am trying to fix the behavior I taught him was acceptable. Way overboard on making other dogs a game.

he also got to greet and be fawned over by everyone I could get to do it. We are just beginning to get over the idea in his mind that everyone is not going to do that, nor is it the acceptable behavior. There are some pitfalls that aren't outlined in the book. Needless to say more people wanted to fawn over 15 pound rottie puppy than 109 pound rottie adult. But you get the idea. He expects it, and tries his best to get it from people who speak to him.

Just a thought on what can happen without a complete set of directions to go with the proposed activities. I turn everyone I talk to who has a dog onto this website. And the countless articles, dvd's and videos. I still have Dunbar's book, but the info in there has to be tempered with some other info, IMHO. J

Those were some of the pitfalls I envisioned when I read the OP, but having no knowledge of Dunbar, was waiting for some informed feedback. My dog runs right up to ppl as it is, and being a GSD, it can be intimidating to strangers.

 Quote: Julie Sloan

I am obviously a proponent of socializing your puppy. Tanka got to play with all kinds of other puppies at puppy classes and he loves other dogs, small animals, but he thinks everyone is there to be played with. SO now I am trying to fix the behavior I taught him was acceptable. Way overboard on making other dogs a game.

(Bold-face added by me.)

I am in the same situation with a large male Dobe. It is so bad that I have had to postpone any further plans of obedience competition with him. If there is another dog anywhere in the vicinity, that overrides any ability to focus on me.

So, yes, while I believe puppy socialization is very important, I think we also have to take into account the goals we have for the dog, i.e., family companion versus sport, working, competition, etc. And to make it even more difficult, many of us want a dog that is a wonderful companion in addition to the other goals we may have.

The particular puppy classes I took this dog to advocated letting the puppies play on their own, with absolutely no interaction from the humans. If a pup was being bullied, then of course the instructors would step in and remove the offender. But, otherwise, hands off. In retrospect, I think that is one of the big reasons my dog thinks other dogs are always there to be played with.

But I also believe the personality of the dog plays a big part, as well as all of the other training that goes into raising a puppy during their formative months. I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes, and a lot of the way he is now is my fault. I will definitely handle things differently with my next pup, but it is difficult for those of us with limited experience (meaning I've owned dogs all my life, but not a large number) to understand how to achieve that fine balance and end up with a dog who is sociable in public but not over-the-top, in-your-face friendly with everyone he meets.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I went to a Ian Dunbar seminar some time in the early 80s.
Your comment on him being dedicated to sociable family dogs is dead on. that's the huge difference in the "approach" you see between what Ed/Cindy promote coming from a working dog background. I lean heavily towards Ed/Cindy's approach.
Nothing wrong with either but it's a choice you make depending on your wants and needs in raising your dog.

Would you say that Ed's approach is more suitable for working dogs and Dr. Dunbar is more suitable for the average pet owner?

What if I want a pet and do obedience or agility with him every now and then but also that he is friendly with strangers?

 Quote: Julie Sloan

keeping in mind that I am no dog trainer and have made a lot of mistakes in raising Tanka which I am trying to fix. I did do some things great with him. I thought I was totally ready to bring home an 8 week old working dog and I had Mr Dunbar's book in hand.

Which book was that? "Before and after you get your puppy"?

 Quote: Julie Sloan

I am obviously a proponent of socializing your puppy. Tanka got to play with all kinds of other puppies at puppy classes and he loves other dogs, small animals, but he thinks everyone is there to be played with. SO now I am trying to fix the behavior I taught him was acceptable. Way overboard on making other dogs a game.

Did he learn that he can be called from puppy playing and then be rewarded with the chance to go play again?

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

The particular puppy classes I took this dog to advocated letting the puppies play on their own, with absolutely no interaction from the humans. If a pup was being bullied, then of course the instructors would step in and remove the offender. But, otherwise, hands off. In retrospect, I think that is one of the big reasons my dog thinks other dogs are always there to be played with.

I have the same question here. Does he know that being called does not end the play session?


A couple of additional points:
I love the idea of having a dog that does not pay attention to other people or dogs (Ed's way). However, if I go this way, my puppy will not interact with other puppies and learn bite inhibition or soft mouth, like Dr. Dunbar suggests.
I also love the engagement theory presented in Michael Ellis DVDs. But most of the dog owners I know would not be willing to do that kind of precise work.
I've never been to one the Dr. Ian Dunbar, but according to some of the stuff I've been researching, I think that when the dogs get to adolescence they start having classes in which they learn that sometimes they will be in places with other dogs and still remain by the owner's side and have "manners". What I believe is one of his main goals is that puppies do not miss the temporal opportunity to interact with other puppies and learn bite inhibition when their teeth are sharp as needles and before developing strong adult jaws.

"I love the idea of having a dog that does not pay attention to other people or dogs (Ed's way). However, if I go this way, my puppy will not interact with other puppies and learn bite inhibition or soft mouth, like Dr. Dunbar suggests."

If you mean that the dog will not know how to interact with other dogs properly, I don't think that is necessarily true. We have raised our last three dogs the Leerburg/Ellis way and they learn bite inhibition/soft mouth with their litter and then with us. I allow my dogs to play with each other as long as they aren't rough or posturing but if the dog is rough- its the handlers responsibility teach the dog to tone it down, not other dogs. In my experience if the dog is in its proper place on the totem pole, you don't have a problem with them being antisocial later in life just because they only got to play with their pack and not every dog outside the pack.JMO

Jose;

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific reason, or need, to have your dog interact with other people and dogs?

 Quote: Jose Miguel Gome

I also love the engagement theory presented in Michael Ellis DVDs. But most of the dog owners I know would not be willing to do that kind of precise work.

Agreed. There are millions of examples of this on youtube and the dog shaming websites.


ETA: You mentioned in another thread that you were interested in having a dog that will follow you around. Engagement is the best way to make sure your dog wants to be with you, and do what you do. Then you don't have to worry about trying to select a dog that may or may not do it on his own.

Edited by Duane Hull (01/31/2013 07:55 PM)
Edit reason: eta

"What if I want a pet and do obedience or agility with him every now and then but also that he is friendly with strangers?"


All my dogs are fine with strangers, in general. They are well socialized, but they have never had extended meet-and-greets with strangers (or strange dogs). They know some people and they know some dogs. Others, they might be indifferent to,tolerant of, or maybe moderately curious about. They are tolerant of them, fine with them passing by, etc. The dog version of me and my family, pretty much. Strangers are fine with me, too; I don't expect then to touch me or interact with me suddenly with no introduction, etc., beyond maybe a smile as we pass.

Are you thinking that not giving treats to strangers to feed your dog, etc., might mean that your dog will be frightened of or aggressive toward strangers?

 Quote: Duane Hull

Jose;

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific reason, or need, to have your dog interact with other people and dogs?

I don't. I am just very curious about different approaches. I study animal behavior, so that may be the reason.