Including the way you have the dog out the DB.

Being critical is easy , on the other hand opening up and letting people in and actually letting other folks know at what level you operate is quite another sir AS YOUR POST ABOVE INDICATES, GOD BLESS YOU MR. ROBERT

and sarcasm and slightly veiled insults get you everywhere i suppose

I'm not upset. Lets get back to the topic.

Yvette, I see you mentioned he is not sitting tight with the DB, but does he sit close without it? If not, you need to go back and teach the HERE correctly. Watch the first part of the tape again and work on one thing at a time.

Does your dog only chew in front of you? or the whole time from he picks it up to when he sits in front?

Are you taking it away with him in the front position?

There are a million possibilities with this problem, since the DB is really a bunch of smaller skills all jammed into one excercise. I treat the DB like I would a tug toy- running- carrying- into my arms, I rarely ever take the D from the front position... and my dog does not chew the DB at all. He was trained with the second method on the tape- he is also a natural retrevier and has a naturally calm grip on all objects. He did go through a phase where he would loosen his grip in front of me and the DB would roll in his mouth. I was able to stop that by tapping one end of the DB to firm up the grip.

I am mean- I have a bad habit of leaving the DB in his mouth while having conversations with people- I love the look of jealousy- especially since I have been told by several of those same people that the motivational retrieve doesn't work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm willing to bet that it is an issue with the out or anticipating having to give up the DB. Not being comfortable under the handler isn't so good.


Either way the dog needs to learn to be comfortable under the handler. Deanna can tell you how to do that with the Flinks method.

I'd sit in my back yard and work with food on each skill necessary.


Cleaning up the grip and overall I would use the e-collar after the dog understands the exact parts of the exercise. Everything will have to be broken down.

Physically standing next to, or under the handler. Such as the come to front position.


There is something affecting the dog in question if he is showing that avoidance, so to fix it you need to build a positive association with the exercise in another context. I'd do that rather than keep trying a variety of things in the same context that may further impact the dog. Such as pulling on the DB or jute to keep the dog's grip tight.

For instance a dog who is a little nervous around his handler, for whatever reason, in the exercise can be solved by re-training different parts of the exercise somewhere else in different manner. The dog will not associate the new exercise with the old one and the problems there, but later the two can be combined to reach the original training goal.


In this case it will depend on how it was trained, so why don't you take a backseat for a while and let Yvette get back in the thread.

In response to some questions (and I'll try to get to them all)...

My dog is a natural retriever so that if I throw something he will bring it back to me and stand next to me. He has lots of prey drive so the guys in my club suggested that I use the DB as a toy to tap into that prey drive to get started. Unfortunately he is prey possessive and he does not like the Out. His grip on any object is normally calm. He does not chew while bringing it back.

We started having problems right away with the chewing while close and head turning and all that, and he even was dropping the DB while sitting in close which this little prey monster normally would never do with ball or tug. So, the guys in the club told me to hang up the DB and forget about using that heavy wooden thing for a while and teach him using a bringsel. So I have not used the DB itself for a month or more.

When I throw the bringsel and he runs to get it and brings it back to me, normally he runs full speed into me, throws up his paws, and bangs in to me. I catch the ends of the bringsel while he is up and we have a nice little tug-o-war and then I slow my movement until I tell him Sitz. So he sits, still holding the bringsel. As long as I am pulling on it and he feels the tension (i.e. if he lets go he will lose it) he will clamp down and hold firm. But, when I ease the pressure and take my hands off the bringsel he starts chewing, and he lets the bringsel fall into the back of his jaw, which is odd to me because this is not a "natural" grip.

I talk soothingly and gently stroke his nose or head in an effort to calm him and get him to settle. That usually doesn't work. :rolleyes: If he does hold calmly for a second or two, then I put my hands on the ends of the bringsel, but with no pressure, and tell him to Out. He typically will Out cleanly. My guess is that he's feeling stressed about this whole experience and so he's all too happy to spit it out.

At that point, I immediately throw the bringsel with a release command, or just jerk up like prey and let him latch on for another game of tug-o-war and then let him win.

I use lots of praise. My neighbors surely think I'm out of my friggin' mind when they hear me playing the cheerleader for my dog. Ha!

Before I hung up the DB I did try to get him to take the DB without any prey stimulation in exchange for his favorite tasty hot dog treats, but that didn't work because without the prey stim he doesn't want to take the DB and he doesn't have that much food drive anyway.

Does this answer some questions?

Yvette

If he does hold calmly for a second or two, then I put my hands on the ends of the bringsel, but with no pressure, and tell him to Out.

So the second the dog offeres the correct behavior you ask him to out?

Don't do that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't think having the bringsel is the stressful part. He likes it because its the toy your using and he goes out to get it. The stressful part is confusion and anticipation I'm guessing. Hard to say without watching in person.

I suspect you are actually punishing the dog for the correct behavior, holding it calm. That would also explain why it has got worse as you are training.


Doesn't like food huh? Does he like a ball?

The guys in my club say to out him when he holds it calm and then give a quick release, like throwing it and let him run after it. Then when comes back we play tug again.

This DB thing is just killing me because the harder I try, and the more time passes without any progress, the more stressed I get and Visar picks up on that and it's all downhill from there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've read Ivan's Adv. SchH book and he recommends to teach the dog to hold a DB instead of making prey, and then reward with food. I've tried that many times and it never works. If I don't make prey with the DB, or bringsel, or whatever, then Visar doesn't want to take it. I can put it in his mouth, but he won't hold it. The hot dog at the end is no substitute in his mind for the "inconvenience" of having to hold this darn thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've also tried that "swap DB for ball" technique and that doesn't get me anywhere either. If Visar thinks I have a better toy (like the ball) than the DB he doesn't want to take the DB. I have to make prey with the DB but he spits it out immediately, so I have to try and make him hold it so that I can reward him, and you can imagine how unsuccessful that is. :rolleyes:

The other woman in my club had to use force to train the DB exercises, and her dog's performance suffered because he does the exercise to avoid pain. I don't want to use force but I don't know how to make this motivational technique to work. That's why I bought the Flinks video on Motivational Retrieve, but I can't get past Square 1. If Visar won't hold a toy with a calm grip while sitting in front of me, then the DB surely won't work. Again, I'll remind you that he is not chewy while running with an object or on the sleeve.

Agh! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

yvette sit the dog at your side throw the jute roll out then realse your dog with bring command when the dog comes to the front and he first sits gently reach down and grab the jute toy and free him up with ok and then a game of tug. then bridge this with good after he comes to you with a very delicate good and then release with a game of tug . the goal is to go al the way back nad play a stress free game where the sabaca feels no stress with you taking the jute away ,look at it from the exact opposite where the dog wants you to put hands on it to play a game of tug and then you over the course of a month without the dog knowing it add a few seconds of control at a time and you can change this .then you say to the dog i will not play tug with you unless you have ears up firm grip and driving into me to grab the tug . it is the opposite of how you have been training food will not help nor compulsion. slow down and look at it 180 degrees the other way make the dog feel that when you put hands on bringsel that then is when the game begins and just watch his ears and eyes change. i know for you yvette this will be very hard for you to understand ,so if this is so i am sorry.