I agree with Steve.....you need to figure out what is making her run & fix it, rather then to resorting to an e-collar to fix it. It won't. It is a bandaid not a FIX.

Also if the training isn't there & solid,(before you add the e-collar) as soon as you remove the e-collar, which you will have to do to trial, she will resort back to her comfort level..which for her is to run.

BTW ALL dogs figure out the different collars sooner or later...so I wouldn't expect to rely on the fact that she won't when you hit the field without it.

Edited to add.....that I have used e-collars on all 4 of my w/l GSDs when off my property, as a back up, but have only had several occasions, in almost 10 years, to have to use it...and at that it was only a very low level nick. And both those occasions were times that my dogs were attacked by loose, out of control dogs. My dogs came when called away from the fight, but wanted to go back & get their balls that they had dropped when they were attacked & then recalled. That's when they got the nick. I did not want them to get attacked again...since the dog was still running loose & the owner chasing it. I put them in a down until the guy caught his dog.(both times, different dogs). Then released them to retrieve their balls & continue playing.

It's the TRAINING not to collar that makes the difference.

 Quote: Anne Jones

I agree with Steve.....you need to figure out what is making her run & fix it, rather then to resorting to an e-collar to fix it. It won't. It is a bandaid, not a FIX.

Also, if the training isn't there & solid (before you add the e-collar), as soon as you remove the e-collar, which you will have to do to trial, she will resort back to her comfort level, which for her is to run.

BTW -- ALL dogs figure out the different collars sooner or later...so I wouldn't expect to rely on the fact that she won't when you hit the field without it.

I agree with Steve and Anne, too.

I know that there is plenty of knowledge and experience here for helping you get to the root of this, Nancy. You came to the right place.

 Quote: steve strom

The ecollar's fine Nancy, but I think you should spend a little more time first figuring out whats pressuring her to bolt. You may really screw up your retrieves if your timing is bad.

How did you train your retrieve? How's her recall?

I don't think she feels pressured to run, I am thinking it is almost like a game to her. She is still young, just turned two, and she is an extreme dog.

Can you define extreme for me Nancy?

Extreme as in she is a very intense dog. Everything she does, she does with such power and energy. At 8 weeks, she was a regular at the schutzhund club. By 12 weeks, she had advanced from the flirt pole and tugs to a puppy sleeve. At 5 months old, she was climbing a ladder. The ladder incident was due to my negligence of leaving her unattended for a few seconds.
Extreme as in this dog fears nothing. Gunfire, climbing obstacles, balancing on objects, nothing phases her. At about 7 months she became very difficult to work with because of her high prey, ball, and food drive. We started working with a prong collar. It was introduced slowly, first not connected to leash, then on leash no correction, etc. The first self-correction she received from the prong collar resulted in her traveling up the leash to my sleeve. That was the only time she has ever shown aggression towards me.
Extreme as in if given the bite command, it does not matter if you are in a suit, sleeve, or no protection, she will find something to grab onto and hang on as if her life depended on it.
Her on-leash obedience is quick and looks flashy and I would like that same thing off-leash.

How/why did your dog "self-correct" on a prong collar? That is the handler's job.

Forgive me for playing devil's advocate... IMHO, the bolting and handler aggression indicate that you may need to reinforce your role as leader. The ecollar may get compliance in the scenario you describe, but it won't help to improve the relationship with your dog.

Steve asked about her recall. This is a great question. I have a pushy, hard-headed bitch, but if she starts after a cat or prey animal, or even another dog (she is highly dog-reactive) I can recall her. I tend to give her a little more leeway than most sport people I know, because I have pretty fair command whether she's on-leash or off.

All JMHO.

 Quote:

At about 7 months she became very difficult to work with because of her high prey, ball, and food drive.

Sorry, I know this is a little off topic but I'm honestly curious. Why not use all that? I'm not saying you shouldn't use an ecollar, but with you describing her as "bolting" I'm curious about what you want to fix if its just finishing touches on off leash work.

Trust me....your dog is NOT that unusual...I know a number of them & I have a VERY HARD, INTENSE GSD bitch with extremely high drives & not the least bit equipment orientated. (A few members here have seen her work & tell you I'm being honest about her evaluation) She has extreme,food,toy(ball or tug)drive. Actually she's a dream come true to work with. I didn't use an e-collar on her until she was over 2 & her foundation was completely SOLID.

There are NO shortcuts to solid foundation work. If you have a good relationship & leadership position with your dog & great engagement,you should not need to resort to an e-collar to train your dog to not run. She is running for a reason. You need to find that reason & address it. It may be a relationship issue, an engagement issue...maybe too much training pressure(moving to fast too soon). You need to figure it out, before going any further or resorting to 'tools' to try to fix the problem. She may be 'coming up the line' at you, because she feels that she is getting unfair corrections. (Not to be confused with handler aggression) You need to be sure that you are not confusing her & being always fair.

Obviously all JMHO

BTW...when my crazy girl was almost a year old(while out on the field)...I turned my back to pick up something that I had dropped & she ran up to top of the bleachers & jumped off the back end...about 8 ft high. Needless to say...I never took my eyes off of her for a second again without putting her in a down first. High drive dogs do crazy things. And at 9 yrs old...she hasn''t changed a bit.

I want to chime in with all the Expert Trainers here, to say 3 things:

1. I'm just a pet owner, but I solidified all Foundation Obedience proofing BEFORE beginning E-Collar Work...

2. I bought, studied & memorized the Original Leerburg e-collar DVD before Starting E-Training (when my Akita spay was 2 years old) and the work "went like butter" !!!

3. I have ordered the NEW Michael Ellis e-collar DVD which I will follow whenever I get another dog ... My current Akita is 8 years old now & is still extremely High-Drive and exceptionally obedient, thanks to all our Leerburg training -- She only wears her e-collar for "emergency backup" but needs no corrections on it in her Family Pet lifestyle...

If you do NOT already own these two videos, I would absolutely study them most thoroughly Prior To purchasing an e-collar.

 Quote: Candi Campbell

I want to chime in with all the Expert Trainers here, to say 3 things:

1. I'm just a pet owner, but I solidified all Foundation Obedience proofing BEFORE beginning E-Collar Work...

2. I bought, studied & memorized the Original Leerburg e-collar DVD before Starting E-Training (when my Akita spay was 2 years old) and the work "went like butter" !!!

3. I have ordered the NEW Michael Ellis e-collar DVD which I will follow whenever I get another dog ... My current Akita is 8 years old now & is still extremely High-Drive and exceptionally obedient, thanks to all our Leerburg training -- She only wears her e-collar for "emergency backup" but needs no corrections on it in her Family Pet lifestyle...

If you do NOT already own these two videos, I would absolutely study them most thoroughly Prior To purchasing an e-collar.

Hi there,
same thing here, don't have an Akita, but a GSD.
I was very careful to follow the advice from the original Leerburg E-Collar DVD. Initially, I bought an Tri-Tronics Sport Basic G3 (gets great reviews wherever you look),
I used that to enforce the recall. Meaning, I did regular recall training on leash. After the commands were clear to the dog, I use the e-collar, if the dog did not follow the recall command. After my dog found out, what happens, if he doesn't listen off leash, he very quickly displayed very nice obedience off leash, with and without e-coller. This worked to a point, where I stopped using the collar.

With the dog getting older, he now disobeys, when goes out to grab other dogs. What is a big no, no. There we go and use the e-collar again.
I bought the Michael Ellis e-collar DVD, and an Einstein mini 300TS with it. Since I do not have to push the button very often (maybe twice a week), while we train at least 1 hour a day, I am very impressed how long the battery lasts. It has been more than 3 weeks since I charged it for the first time.

Following the DVD's I think, that my dog is not aware, when he wears the e-collar, but he knows, that when he gets a correction, that that was me correcting him.

Now my negative observation: In two occasions, the dog hurt himself, and obviously blamed me for the pain, becoming agitated towards me, because he thought I corrected him for no apparent reason.
First case was him walking onto a patch of salt, that a salt truck dropped as we where crossing the road. Him rolling on his back, snarling and not letting me get close to him, to see what was wrong. And the second case, during a training session, as we were training jumps, he didn't jump high enough and clipped the barrier with his knees.

Now in both cases he wasn't really insured, but I can't imagine how he will react, in case he tears a tendon or stresses a muscle. Also in both cases he was not wearing an e-collar.

This is just to share my observations,
Michael