I get what you're asking and don't take it as an insult.

Him being a softer dog doesn't have much of an effect on using an e-collar or not. The level we're working at right now is less of a correction than a leash pop.

I want to incorporate distance work and I'm thinking the e-collar is going to be a lot more precise than a long line especially for stays.

Just another tool in the tool box.

Gotcha :-)
And I really just wanted to qualify my question, I was looking for your thought process, not a debate on e collars, but it can be a hot topic, so thought I would nip it in the bud :-)

An ecollar can be a good tool with a sensitive dog. Its an impersonal correction. The motion of your arm with a leash correction can seem like an attack from you to a sensitive dog and if there's any emotion from you when you do it, it can seem even worse.

My thinking is the same as Steve's in that I can reduce my emotional response when correcting. I find that I can give a correction with a e-collar and better regulate the intensity of the correction since I can set it to a consistent numeric value. In addition, I don't tend to get myself amped up or frustrated when using an e-collar since it requires less physical effort. Everyone knows that you should never train when frustrated so this helps create a better training environment for me and my dog.

There's another side to this, of course, but everyone knows that one: the detachment that can make unfair and too-hard corrections easier because of the simplicity and detachment of administering them.

I sure have seen it among some people who buy an e-collar and slap it on with no foundation training, and no research (and certainly no LB DVD about how to use it).

IOW, it's easy to use it badly.

JMO.

On this board, I doubt that this is much of an issue.

Agree to all of you To be honest that was my original thought, the pup wasn't solid in the command, and we are adding correction? I hate to admit, but with the "Stay" I veer more to the Sara Wilson side of the fence, distance being the last variable I add.
As for the soft/sensitive dog, you have my empathy, I put my one and only thin nerved dog down last July, beautiful dog, great detection/tracker, but wow what a frustration to train. "Hey" would completely cap her. She would shut down for hours.
My solution (what was I thinking?) my new pup a Czech Shepherd, hence my interest in ecollar posts, because she may in fact be the first dog I need to use one with LOL. I managed an insane Wolf for 15 years, that pales in comparison with this Man Eater lol.
And now I feel guilty writing that statement as she is laying content at my feet, but don't be fooled, she obviously knows I'm writing this, and an hour from now she will be in warrior mode

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

There's another side to this, of course, but everyone knows that one: the detachment that can make unfair and too-hard corrections easier because of the simplicity and detachment of administering them.

I sure have seen it among some people who buy an e-collar and slap it on with no foundation training, and no research (and certainly no LB DVD about how to use it).

IOW, it's easy to use it badly.

JMO.

On this board, I doubt that this is much of an issue.

I was working OB with Lucian in the front yard when a beautiful female GSP came around the corner of the house towards us. I put Lou in a down and called her over to me. She had an e-collar on, and about half way to me she got hit, and hard. She ran behind me, cowering and yelping in fear and pain. I took the collar off and had her follow me into the garage, where I put a slip lead on her. I put Lucian up and took her out into the front yard, waiting for her owner to come looking. She is the sweetest little girl. Super drive and very biddable.

I put the collar on the ground in front of us and watched the red light going crazy.

When a pick-up truck came slowly down the road, I knew we had a winner. I left the collar on the ground and took her out to the side of the road to get the driver's attention.

He saw us and drove over, pulling into the driveway. He made some comment about her collar falling off, and that being the reason she wouldn't come home. I spent about 10 minutes with him, explaining his misuse of the collar and how I would advise him to educate himself and seek out the assistance of a professional before buying another collar to put on her.

He ended up taking OB and e-collar classes at my local club, before purchasing another collar. I gave his collar back after he showed that he was going to do the right thing. He felt terrible, in thinking he was doing the right thing.

 Quote: David Winners

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

There's another side to this, of course, but everyone knows that one: the detachment that can make unfair and too-hard corrections easier because of the simplicity and detachment of administering them.

I sure have seen it among some people who buy an e-collar and slap it on with no foundation training, and no research (and certainly no LB DVD about how to use it).

IOW, it's easy to use it badly.

JMO.

On this board, I doubt that this is much of an issue.

I was working OB with Lucian in the front yard when a beautiful female GSP came around the corner of the house towards us. I put Lou in a down and called her over to me. She had an e-collar on, and about half way to me she got hit, and hard. She ran behind me, cowering and yelping in fear and pain. I took the collar off and had her follow me into the garage, where I put a slip lead on her. I put Lucian up and took her out into the front yard, waiting for her owner to come looking. She is the sweetest little girl. Super drive and very biddable.

I put the collar on the ground in front of us and watched the red light going crazy.

When a pick-up truck came slowly down the road, I knew we had a winner. I left the collar on the ground and took her out to the side of the road to get the driver's attention.

He saw us and drove over, pulling into the driveway. He made some comment about her collar falling off, and that being the reason she wouldn't come home. I spent about 10 minutes with him, explaining his misuse of the collar and how I would advise him to educate himself and seek out the assistance of a professional before buying another collar to put on her.

He ended up taking OB and e-collar classes at my local club, before purchasing another collar. I gave his collar back after he showed that he was going to do the right thing. He felt terrible, in thinking he was doing the right thing.

I wish I could hear more stories like this.

This is exactly what I meant.

Good for you David. I have nothing against any piece of equipment, but use it right, and don't use it as the easy way out. Call me crazy but I actually enjoy spending time with my dog, and could care less how easy or hard, or most importantly how quickly she gets it. Zocha's long stay at a distance is awful right now, who cares, she's 9 months old, and her engagement with me is through the roof, and her recall bullet proof (thank you Michael Ellis). So naturally her long stay at distance is shaky, it will happen in time, right now she just wants to be with me, and that's not such a bad place to be
Not saying an ecollar is out of the realm of possibility, but for now I'll just work it daily, and take another step further every day
Edit:To be clear, I was meaning the Moron jolting the dog for a recall using the equipment incorrectly,

 Quote: David Winners

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

There's another side to this, of course, but everyone knows that one: the detachment that can make unfair and too-hard corrections easier because of the simplicity and detachment of administering them.

I sure have seen it among some people who buy an e-collar and slap it on with no foundation training, and no research (and certainly no LB DVD about how to use it).

IOW, it's easy to use it badly.

JMO.

On this board, I doubt that this is much of an issue.

I was working OB with Lucian in the front yard when a beautiful female GSP came around the corner of the house towards us. I put Lou in a down and called her over to me. She had an e-collar on, and about half way to me she got hit, and hard. She ran behind me, cowering and yelping in fear and pain. I took the collar off and had her follow me into the garage, where I put a slip lead on her. I put Lucian up and took her out into the front yard, waiting for her owner to come looking. She is the sweetest little girl. Super drive and very biddable.

I put the collar on the ground in front of us and watched the red light going crazy.

When a pick-up truck came slowly down the road, I knew we had a winner. I left the collar on the ground and took her out to the side of the road to get the driver's attention.

He saw us and drove over, pulling into the driveway. He made some comment about her collar falling off, and that being the reason she wouldn't come home. I spent about 10 minutes with him, explaining his misuse of the collar and how I would advise him to educate himself and seek out the assistance of a professional before buying another collar to put on her.

He ended up taking OB and e-collar classes at my local club, before purchasing another collar. I gave his collar back after he showed that he was going to do the right thing. He felt terrible, in thinking he was doing the right thing.

He's real lucky she stayed with you. That could have seemed to her that she just got fried for coming to you and sent her bolting off as fast as she could go. That could be a lot of work getting her to come to anyone ever again.

Did this guy tell you why in the world he would think that was any way to use the collar? Don't most of them come with basic instructions?