I looked at her prices. Good grief, is that normal for once-a-week group lessons in Florida? It's eight or so times what I'm used to paying, and we have some pretty nice dog training clubs and private training facilities in my area.

I rag on National K9, as I think it's just a fraud and I've never met a good trainer out of the several dozen graduates that I've met from there in the last three decades.
Although I'm sure there must be a few good ones somewhere...

We have a large "dog trainer's school" in my area. I've seen a number of excellent people that came out of it yet it seems there are more that just don't get it.
Dog training, to me, is more about understanding how and why a dog learns and not just the mechanics of how to do it.

On the NK9 web site, they list a 6 week Master Trainers course.

HAHAHA... you can know EVERYTHING you need to know to be a professional trainer in 6 weeks. This ranks right up there with male enhancement pills.


Bob:

I couldn't agree more. If you understand how dogs learn, and understand that everything you do around a dog effects your relationship, the teaching comes easy. This all took me a long time (years), a lot of reading, a bunch of dogs on my leash, and some solid mentorship by experienced trainers to understand. You can't learn this stuff in a hurry, at least I sure can't. IME, most people, trainers included, just don't have a connection to the dog at the end of the leash. They don't ever have engagement from the dog. They just go through the motions.

I understand that every trainer has to start somewhere, but I've seen a lot of "trainers" that charge a premium price that haven't got a clue.

$1,100 for a CGC prep course? 6 hours of basic training to teach sit, down, come, heel, and stay for $570? Wow

As for a trainer that seems to have only a choke collar, prong collar, and e-collar in their toolbox; I've worked with one and my dog never looked happy to train. Since we've switched to marker training, I've seen a positive change in her attitude. I think correction has it's place in training but it seems like modern trainers that know how to teach a dog don't rely on compulsion to build behaviors anymore. If they're going to use antiquated techniques, shouldn't they be charging antiquated rates?

 Quote: Bryan Simms

$1,100 for a CGC prep course? 6 hours of basic training to teach sit, down, come, heel, and stay for $570? Wow

As for a trainer that seems to have only a choke collar, prong collar, and e-collar in their toolbox; I've worked with one and my dog never looked happy to train. Since we've switched to marker training, I've seen a positive change in her attitude. I think correction has it's place in training but it seems like modern trainers that know how to teach a dog don't rely on compulsion to build behaviors anymore. If they're going to use antiquated techniques, shouldn't they be charging antiquated rates?

$1100 to prep for a CGC? 6 hours of basic training to teach sit, down, come, heel, and stay for $570?

I missed that.

 Quote: Christian Cruz

What is your opinion on just using praise as the only source of motivation vs using food drive and toy drive?

Think about the last part of your question...

Which drive does your dog get most motivated in? What you are referencing is marker training, but you want to use a potentially lower-valued reward. Therefore, one must assume that you will be lowering your expectations of your dog and its' aptitude and training.

IMO, if you want to maximize your dog's trainability, you need to maximize the motivation by working in your dog's highest drive, which would require high-value rewards. Praise is usually fairly low in a most dogs' reward schemes, and offers the least motivational impact, so most trainers opt for a higher-valued reward system.

For the most part, those who claim that teaching a dog with food means that you will always have to use food are deliberately overlooking the fact that most competitive dogs on the field nowadays are trained in a reward-based system and complete long, grueling exercises and tracks without receiving a reward. We are now learning that even military detection dogs are trained to work for a reward, and receive that reward even for an actual, real-time find.

i can't understand why you would want to train without food and toys .

you can't send a stronger ( positive ) message to a dog than by giving him free food . wouldn't it make sense then to use that to build the relationship ?

and after the dog learns that you will share your toys , why not take advantage of that ?

i hope the OP saves their money . . .

As a very basic trainer myself.. why would you want to be "training dogs without treats or toys as a motivation tool"? Are you afraid that you'll find yourself in a position where you don't have treats or toys available and you need to command your animal? You want to deprive him/her of a fun learning environment to prep for your own possible poor future planning? Marker training tapers off using food and toys for each command anyways. You don't toss a treat for every OB command when the dog's been trained for over a year.

When obeying you makes fun things happen, the dog wants to obey you (does offering new behaviors to avoid correction happen? Ever?). When not obeying you brings pain.. the dog wants to avoid you and sure as heck doesn't want you asking him to do anything.
ETA: crossposted with Ian

I still don't get why some people are hung up on compulsion training. For some, it seems to be more of an indication of how they view their relationship with dogs in general.

I hear comments like, "My dog should obey me because I'm the Master, not because of a reward." Or, "I shouldn't have to bribe my dog to get them to do what I want them to do. I want them to obey because they respect/love me."

The problem I see is that dogs really are pretty simple creatures. They don't make value judgments in the same way we do and I don't believe they understand the human-dog relationship in those kinds of terms. They understand that an action has a result, positive or negative for them. They try to do what gives them the most positive results and avoids the most negative results.

I want a dog that enjoys training and gets excited about working with me, not a dog that fears working with me and is nervous about what might happen. I want a dog that offers behaviors to me and is actively engaged and trying to work with me, not one that must be forced to obey a command and punished if they don't. I want training to feel like play for both of us.

I do think aversives have their place in training for most dogs, but I do think they need to be carefully and sparsely applied so that they do what is needed and don't damage the relationship. I think that positive reinforcers should be given generously as should praise at the end of a session or a particularly difficult behavior chain.

I train this way because it fits how I view the relationship that I want with my dogs which is one that is more of a partnership with me being a leader, not with the dog being beaten down into "their place." I want a relationship that is built on trust and affection, not intimidation and compulsion.