 Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384853 - 10/22/2013 10:34 AM |
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Mara, what are we arguing about? I told you I know about border collies and how they're more 'stuck' on their owner so to say. Other breeds are not so. It also comes down to individual dogs.
As I said below in the quote
But this point doesn't matter by itself, it only bugged me in the connection you made.
Dogs are hardwired and therefore they can learn from corrections.
Whales are not hardwired and therefore they can't.
This is the part that makes no sense. The hardwired part can be argued, there are many people with dogs that don't feel they're hardwired to do anything for them. Are uu ready to dismiss their experience? How about huskies? I personally know one that doesn't care about his owners to a large degree.
But once again, I misunderstood the way you used hardwired. I thought you meant that dogs want to please us.
From what I read that's not true. Dogs want to please themselves. Maybe some breeds want to please us to a certain degree but this can't be applied to all dogs.
Ed is one person that said it. Don't remember who else off hand. |
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#384854 - 10/22/2013 10:46 AM |
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delete ... too off topic
Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/22/2013 10:46 AM)
Edit reason: deleted
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Mike Arnold ]
#384855 - 10/22/2013 10:41 AM |
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Here is a video of a young border collie just starting training http://vimeo.com/5237059 the pup very clearly wants to work in tandem with the handler
Help me out here Mara. I can clearly see the hardwired link here, But I'm completely missing the desire to work in tandem with the handler? What should I look at?
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384856 - 10/22/2013 10:56 AM |
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Killer whale = wild animal. Not selectively bred by humans. Social to an extent, but much more solitary than dogs. Correct a killer whale and they will figure out how to avoid you, not how to appease you. Dog = domesticated for thousands of years. Originally worked together in packs. brought up learning what not to do through corrections from pack members. As younger, lower ranking members when they got a correction they learned what NOT to do. And they abided by it because they had the NEED to be a member of the pack for food, safety and because they were more social. When we bring a dog into our home, we become the pack leader. We can correct them and they learn from it because they *need* us. Because they *need* us they try to please us.
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: steve strom ]
#384857 - 10/22/2013 11:02 AM |
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Here is a video of a young border collie just starting training http://vimeo.com/5237059 the pup very clearly wants to work in tandem with the handler
Help me out here Mara. I can clearly see the hardwired link here, But I'm completely missing the desire to work in tandem with the handler? What should I look at?
A dog with no training that naturally gathers the sheep to the handler.
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#384858 - 10/22/2013 11:18 AM |
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Boy, I just don't see it that way. I'm looking at a young dog doing what they naturally do and a handler moving around trying to gain some control and evaluate where the dog is.
They're pinned in, so they aren't going to go too far and the sheep look to be pretty experienced in the whole thing so they look like they almost gather to the handler on their own. I'm sure you could show a better example to make your point.
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384859 - 10/22/2013 11:23 AM |
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What makes you think that a whale will figure out how to avoid us after corrections (not sure how, they live in tanks where we can get to them).
I'm only arguing the logic in your assumptions.
Also, whales need us as much as dogs do. We feed them, we give them water to swim in and whatever else they need.
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Natalie Rynda ]
#384860 - 10/22/2013 11:25 AM |
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Just curious, Natalie... what makes Ed's opinions valuable? If not experience, what is the currency that backs his advice?
It IS experience. I don't know any of you and I 'know' him.
But you're both missing the point.
So, then, why are you HERE asking for advice, instead of emailing Ed?
FWIW, I don't think I am missing the point. This thread was created because we were arguing about experience vs. theory on an unrelated thread. MY POINT is and always has been that you don't have the experience to contradict the people that you solicited for advice.
Where did Mike get off to?
Sadie |
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384861 - 10/22/2013 11:28 AM |
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I didn't look at the video because I know (from what I saw, heard and read) that border collies are more willing to please their handler, I wasn't arguing that point.
There are some breeds that are much more stuck on their handlers than others. It also comes down to individual dogs.
And there are breeds that don't care for their handlers (as a whole, I'm sure there re exceptions), huskies are one of them.
So you can't say all dogs want to please their handlers even if some dogs do.
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Re: Training experience and theory
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#384863 - 10/22/2013 11:35 AM |
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Just curious, Natalie... what makes Ed's opinions valuable? If not experience, what is the currency that backs his advice?
It IS experience. I don't know any of you and I 'know' him.
But you're both missing the point.
So, then, why are you HERE asking for advice, instead of emailing Ed?
FWIW, I don't think I am missing the point. This thread was created because we were arguing about experience vs. theory on an unrelated thread. MY POINT is and always has been that you don't have the experience to contradict the people that you solicited for advice.
Where did Mike get off to?
Because (as in the case with Ed too, I don't incorporate everything he suggests) I still get ideas that I can evaluate and pick out the ones that will work for me.
No matter the person's experience I still pick out the things I'm comfortable with. I don't blindly follow anyone.
So your opinion is that I don't have experience to contradict anyone. How much experience do you have?
How much experience do I need to be able to contradict anyone here?
Does it go on levels? Some people are more experienced than others.
So when do I get to contradict?
Also, keep something in mind when you evaluate my experience. I always lowball myself, I told you, in a year I will still tell you I have no experience.
I had my dog for 6 months and the trainers that saw him all said that I'm doing better than I described.
So how much experience do you have?
You seem to think you can give advice so it must be lots.
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