I wish to comment that a "tendency to grow skin things" is I believe genetic and causes just as much owner discomfort and vet bills as things like hip dysplasia and eye problems.

I believe this runs in lines, just from my experience, not from anything I can cite.

My vet indicated that it was genetic also. That if your GSD had it, it was something you dealt with throughout his life. I was hoping to negate the issue as much as possible with diet and supplements.

EX: Some kids have worse acne than others as they grow. This too is against genetic lines. But we can help it out by diet and supplements.

Since this is so new to me, I have to rely on others for info, and frankly I have not found a better board anywhere around then here. Many thanks to you Connie for your time.

So do you think I am dealing with the cysts or the lipomas?
Do you feel that Turmeric will have a negative effect on my dog? Worth trying?

Right now, I have them pretty much under control (I think) remaining small and going away in a couple of weeks. As they are reabsorbed, I get a couple more popping up. Seems like he always has one or two at any time. He is not bothered by them so much as I can tell.

Betty, thank you for your kind comments. That was when Thunder was a year old, before he went away for training. I had arranged to be my own puppy raiser for my dog. Downside is that I had to buy him on my own, and roll the dice on the hips. Everything worked out and they accepted him. He has kept me out of a wheelchair for the most part. Upside is that he will not let me just sit in a chair or lay in bed all day. He is a very communicative dog. When he comes in my room carrying my cane in his mouth, there is no question we are going for a walk.

"So do you think I am dealing with the cysts or the lipomas?"




Here's some info on the two from Dr. Mike Richards (now retired, I believe, but there's always a good solid overview from him, IME): http://www.vetinfo.com/dlipoma.html#b

Scroll down to Sebaceous Cysts and Lipomas



Speaking of diet and supplements, I double-checked on my memory of Luster Coat last night. I had trouble finding an ingredient list (and in fact, never found one). Do you have a link to an ingredients list?

As I posted, my memory of this product is that it provides no DHA/EPA. But I'd really like to see the list of ingredients.

I got the name of the product a little wrong I believe. Here is exactly what I am using, and the ingredients. thanks for the links.

Halo
Skin & Coat
VitaGlo
Dream Coat

51+ lbs gets 15 mlsswx

Off the bottle
Soybean Oil
Safflower Oil
Sunflower Oil
Wheat Germ Oil
Cod Liver Oil
Ansie Oil
Garlic Oil
Vitamin E

Guaranteed Analysis per 5ml
Moisture Max .1%

Linoleic Acid (Min 42%)
(Omega 6) 1890 mg

Vitamin A (MIN) 55 IU
Vitamin D (Min) 22 IU
Vitamin E (Min) 5 IU

Arachiodonic Acid
(min 0.305%) 1.55 mg

*Oleic Acid (mim 23%) 1035 mg
*Linolenic Acid (min 4%)
(Omega 3) 180 mg

*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog & Cat Food Profiles

http://www.vitacost.com/halo-purely-for-pets-vitaglo-dream-coat-meal-enhancement-for-cats-and-dogs

I wouldn't pay for this. There are so many reasons that I'll just touch on a couple:

It's loaded with Omega 6 EFAs. The modern diet (for dogs and humans) is skewed toward Omega 6 EFAs. What are needed are Omega 3s.

For dogs, the Omega 3s actually needed are, these days, from marine sources, because modern grain-fed (and non-wild) meat sources are deficient in 3s, and because dogs need their EPA and DHA (long-chain 3s) to come AS EPA and DHA. That is, as mentioned earlier, most (almost all) dogs don't have the mechanism to convert the shorter-chain 3s to the beneficial long-chain 3s. (The few individuals who may have a better-than-zero conversion factor are still so inefficient and unreliable as to categorize them too in the no-conversion group.)

Also, fish liver oil is too high in the fat-soluble vitamins A and D to give safely in therapeutic amounts. (In this case, it's not a therapeutic amount anyway.)

This supplement has a good thing: it provides natural E (d-alpha as opposed to dl-alpha).

But this supplement does nothing to help restore a better balance of 3s and 6s, which is what we're looking for when we give (or take) fish oil.

Briefly, Omega 6 EFAs promote inflammation, a necessary healing response. Long-chain 3s promote the suppression of inflammation, keeping it from running amok. (Inflammation is either a major factor or THE major factor in most chronic diseases, from diabetes to osteoarthritis to IBS/IBD to many skin disorders. In humans, you can add the coronary artery disease that is the precursor to what we call heart "attacks.")

I wouldn't exacerbate the 3-6 imbalance that grain-fed and grain-finished (and other factors) meat triggers (which this supplement would do).

This is kind of a capsule version of an ongoing discussion here of why dogs need supplements of long-chain 3s plus the d-alpha vitamin E (and, ideally, mixed tocopherols) that support and protect oil supplements ... that protect the processing of the PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) in oil supplements.

Not only do I not understand the comment about salmon oil contributing to sebaceous cysts, I believe that fish body (not liver) oil is an important supplement against skin disorders.

Sebaceous cysts may be exacerbated by oily topicals, but that's very different. (You probably know that sebaceous cysts involve a pore or follicle being clogged, maybe because of dirt, infection, scar tissue, etc., or maybe, if genetic inclination is involved, from an overproduction of normal sebum.)

I do not understand the comment about salmon oil contributing to sebaceous cysts either. Most all of the information I find is anecdotal and not corroborated. What I get is try this... it worked for me... which is where I am right now... trying things.

Regarding the 3-6 balance and its necessity in dogs, could you please provide sources for me to read up on this? Peer reviewed articles would be great, but anything that has some reasonably based arguments are fine.

Currently I have two cysts left on Thunder since I first started posting. One is now healed and scabbing over nicely. The other has reduced mass, flaked off a bit of the cyst, and starting to heal and disappear. Both of them are approximately 3-4mm. I have not found any new ones sprouting up, but given the course of things, I should find a couple of new ones soon. These are all the size of a small pimple.

Since I have been trying to address this issue by diet and the above supplement: I have changed his diet back to Dry food Taste of the Wild Wetlands Formula & Taste of the Wild High Prairie Formula as well as Wet Canned Taste of the Wild Southwest Canyon Formula. I go through 60 lbs of dry food and two cases of canned food per month. I do have another medium size dog that helps eat the dry food. I use the canned food to feed Thunder specially and keep our bond strong. The other dog eats out of a auto feeder.

Specifically I eliminated salmon based foods, which, I was using exclusively. I was using Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon dry and canned. I had not had the problem until I switched to this food, which is also anecdotal, but something to consider in the overall picture.

Up till know I have been dealing with witch doctor type advise from other GSD owners who have been through the same issue and I willing to give anything a try. So moving his food back to what he was on before the problem made sense even if the Salmon issue did not. I had thought the Salmon based foods would be a benefit for the very reasons you bring up.

My results have been positive, however, as the cysts have reduced considerably in size, and they do not grow larger and rupture (6mm) and take a long time to heal. Why am I achieving these results? I have no idea. Something I am doing must be helping. Heart worm and flea medications remain the same and the dog has had no new shots.

My Vet does not have any intelligent advise on a plan of action. Searching the web yields little more than half complete threads that explain the same issue, but are not followed up on, nor do they offer any possible reasons or treatments. I felt cause for concern when the problem continually presented itself. It was not just one or two cysts. Every time one would heal up, I would get another. During a period of six months, I decided that I should get more proactive.

I will continue to examine Thunder and report if any more cysts present themselves. I am going to continue the diet and the supplement I have been following until I can come up with something more reasonable. If it isn't broke, don't fix it is the mode I am in now.

I would like to continue the discussion and come up with a dietary and supplement plan that makes more sense. Any information on these cysts would be welcomed. Could they be hormone related? They remind me of a teenager going through an acne period. The cysts are quire similar to black heads as at least one has developed a head and discharged puss similarly.

Thanks for all your help.

"Regarding the 3-6 balance and its necessity in dogs"

When I said "a better balance" between 6s and 3s, I meant "moving toward the balance that humans (and dogs) had until the last two to three hundred years ... until both moved away from wild (hunted) and grass-fed slaughter animals." (A "better balance" could be just moving toward 5 to 1 and away from 20 to 1, of dietary 6s to 3s.)

Virtually all the authoritative information you've seen and read about humans and Omega 3 EFAs applies to dogs (and many mammals). A couple of significant exceptions are that dogs don't have the coronary artery disease that humans do (an inflammation disease) and that dogs can't convert the plant-based shorter-chain 3s to the beneficial long-chain EPA and DHA.

This is a small piece of what you're asking and talking about, so I don't really want to turn this into a thread on Omega 3 EFAs for dogs (and retype the wheel as well ... this board is loaded with threads on fish oil and links to research. I'll dig some up a bit later and post links, or you can use FISH or OMEGA in "advanced search," upper right on your screen, expand the date range to about 6 years, and probably use my name as poster's name).




I'm hearing that your vet seems to know little about the issue, and I echo the mention someone made earlier about a derm vet. Do you have access to a derm vet?

A few of the vet-site links I posted earlier included treatment or management sections. Did anything seem useful?

I noticed that Veterinary Partner mentioned warm soaks or hot packs for some sebaceous cysts. This would be something I'd talk to a derm vet about.

Also, is the dog prone to licking at it? This can be a problem, causing continuous dampness and possibly exacerbating infection tendencies.

You mentioned turmeric, and yes, I've read it recommended for sebaceous cysts, but these cysts are vulnerable to bacterial infection (I'm sure you know), and turmeric can interfere with antibiotics.


I've seen a page with a couple of home remedies described. I'll dig that up. But they are remedies that I would want approved by the vet (preferably derm vet).

I believe that sebaceous cysts in humans can be hormone-related, BTW. This sounds like an interesting research route.



ETA
I see that epidermal inclusion cysts and epidermoid cysts are terms under which so-called sebaceous cysts are included in vet manuals (or at least Merck).

Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/11/2013 10:16 AM)
Edit reason: ETA

Duplicate

Edited by Jodi Moen (11/11/2013 10:26 AM)
Edit reason: duplicate

Agree with the hormones. I also would think about for repeated pustular cysts, doing a culture, seeing what grows and considering treating with antibiotics.

Interesting in that after I started my dog on a salmon diet for her allergies ALL skin issues resolved, she also gets a vit E 400 iu. daily, along with a morning antihistamine.