That $125 derma vet consultation will save you hundreds with the regular vet! I know this from personal experience...

 Quote: Lori Hall

That $125 derma vet consultation will save you hundreds with the regular vet! I know this from personal experience...

So do I. More experiences with more dogs than I want to remember before I understood the black hole I was pouring money into by expecting GP vets to be specialists. Derm is a vast specialty that just can't be known in depth by GP vets.

 Quote: Lee_Reicheld

Thanks Connie. They found no yeast at all, which was surprising to me!

My vet said the next step would be to try an elimination diet, but I don't agree. I still think it's got to be some kind of environmental thing.

I did find a local derm vet who will require a referral from my current vet for an appointment. The initial consultation is $125.

Here is a perfect example of the need for methodically eliminating each possibility in the right order.

Tracy said "Frequent bathing does more to offer relief for my seasonal allergy dog than anything else. Whatever the inhaled allergen is (mold, pollen, dust mite) is also sticking to the hair coat, making the dog's own coat a primary source for the allergen. "


This mechanical removal of the allergens that travel with the dog's coat, causing inhalation of allergens 24/7, is huge.

And also the "paw clean-water pan"already mentioned, followed by careful gentle drying.

 Quote: Lee_Reicheld

They found no yeast at all, which was surprising to me!

In the ears as well as the paws?

Yes, they used a swab in the ear to collect a sample and did a scrape test on his paw pad. I thought he had a slightly yeasty odor, too. I guess not.

I made an appointment with a local derm vet for Friday. For those of you who have gone to one before, what was your typical first bill like?

The initial consultation/exam fee is $125. I am clinging on to the hope that they won't then tell me he needs a $150 test, a $200 panel, $50 shampoo, $85 bubble bath, etc. etc...

 Quote: Lee_Reicheld

Yes, it started in late August/early September. One course of antibiotics and he was good for a few weeks, then it happened again at the beginning of October. Three weeks of antibiotics, then five days later he's licking his paws again.

I am in an area that does have a lot of ragweed. I used to be allergic to that too when I was a kid!

Worth circling back to the original article you posted which talked about allergy + secondary infection.

During an allergic episode, if the dog is scratching and licking, there is very often a skin infection which is treated by an antibiotic.

But the antibiotic isn't a treatment for the allergy itself. The antibiotic is effective against bacteria. But allergies aren't caused by bacteria. They are triggered by a histamine response (the body's own immune system detecting what it thinks is a foreign and dangerous protein.) In humans, histamine receptors are in the mucous membranes (we sneeze, cough, runny nose, itchy eyes). In dogs, those histamine receptors are in the skin.

But that doesn't mean the allergen is getting in through the skin. It's being inhaled. The canine body's response is in the skin, causing itching. (which prompts scratching...which invites bacteria.) That's why washing off allergens from the dog's coat is effective. Not because they are seeping into the skin, but because the dog is re-breathing his own cloud of allergic particles all day.

Antihistamines are the drug that suppress the histamine response, tamping down on the dog's body creating the itch sensation to begin with. Immune suppressant drugs (i.e. steroids do this too, but in a different way.) This is also the goal of immunotherapy ("allergy shots") which try to re-set the body's histamine response to the allergen.

All of which is just to point out that the courses of antibiotics aren't really "fixing" the problem. They are just fixing a second problem caused by the original problem.

And antibiotics (as necessary as they are, when necessary) are pretty indiscriminate. Not only are they wiping out skin bacteria, but also the good gut bacteria.

Did Benadryl help with the itching? It's a very safe drug that--if it works for your dog--is getting much closer to the source of the problem than antibiotics can.

 Quote: Lee_Reicheld

I made an appointment with a local derm vet for Friday. For those of you who have gone to one before, what was your typical first bill like?

The initial consultation/exam fee is $125. I am clinging on to the hope that they won't then tell me he needs a $150 test, a $200 panel, $50 shampoo, $85 bubble bath, etc. etc...

Lee, think of this appointment as paying for information. Ask a LOT of questions. Listen carefully to the answers - even take notes if you need to. Arm yourself with facts and then take some time to digest what you hear. You don't have to do anything they suggest or make any decisions right away. I paid more than $125 for my initial consultation btw, but I got a lot of info so I could make some informed choices about what to do next.

A good derm vet can look at the dog, it's symptoms and where it is biting/chewing/scratching and make an informed guess about whether you are talking about environmental allergies, flea allergy or perhaps food. They will almost always recommend an elimination diet - yes, even derma vets tend to go there especially if you don't want to delve into skin testing for environmental stuff. They just want to be able to give you things to do. I'm not against doing the elimination diet just so you'll know for sure in your own mind, but it IS a pain! Usually if a dog has a food allergy there are other symptoms too, not just paw licking - i.e. digestion issues, rashes.

Ask them to give you their opinion, based on the way the dog looks, any rashes, where he is biting and scratching, if they are leaning towards environmental or something else. Since this dog is young there isn't a long history of symptoms to be looking at so it's a little harder. The one thing I would pay for them to do (it's not expensive) is let them do a cytology there to check for bacteria and yeast.

After you have gone, post the info you got and we can help you sift through it and give some opinions on the path to take. But don't feel you have to make any choices that day - tell them you need the weekend to think about what they have offered and will get back to them.

 Quote: Tracy Collins

... Worth circling back to the original article you posted which talked about allergy + secondary infection.

During an allergic episode, if the dog is scratching and licking, there is very often a skin infection which is treated by an antibiotic.

But the antibiotic isn't a treatment for the allergy itself. The antibiotic is effective against bacteria. But allergies aren't caused by bacteria. They are triggered by a histamine response (the body's own immune system detecting what it thinks is a foreign and dangerous protein.) In humans, histamine receptors are in the mucous membranes (we sneeze, cough, runny nose, itchy eyes). In dogs, those histamine receptors are in the skin.

But that doesn't mean the allergen is getting in through the skin. It's being inhaled. The canine body's response is in the skin, causing itching. (which prompts scratching...which invites bacteria.) That's why washing off allergens from the dog's coat is effective. Not because they are seeping into the skin, but because the dog is re-breathing his own cloud of allergic particles all day.

Antihistamines are the drug that suppress the histamine response, tamping down on the dog's body creating the itch sensation to begin with. Immune suppressant drugs (i.e. steroids do this too, but in a different way.) This is also the goal of immunotherapy ("allergy shots") which try to re-set the body's histamine response to the allergen.

All of which is just to point out that the courses of antibiotics aren't really "fixing" the problem. They are just fixing a second problem caused by the original problem.

And antibiotics (as necessary as they are, when necessary) are pretty indiscriminate. Not only are they wiping out skin bacteria, but also the good gut bacteria.

Did Benadryl help with the itching? It's a very safe drug that--if it works for your dog--is getting much closer to the source of the problem than antibiotics can.

Those are some of the million words I wanted to post, only more succinctly stated by Tracy.

Also, fish oil given with antihistamines bumps up the antihistamine's benefits. I think it was U of Maryland's Vet Med that found about a one-third significant beneficial response from antihistamines for atopic dogs, but that this went up to closer to 50% if fish oil was given concurrently. (Also, Benadryl wasn't in the top couple, based on beneficial response, but that doesn't matter much if it helps your dog; response to antihistamines is highly individual.)





About the initial derm visit, you know you could always leave with "I have a lot to think about" after you talk and take notes.