Was there a challenge after all symptoms were gone for several weeks? I'd like to hear what happened when the symptoms had been gone for some weeks and chicken was re-introduced in the challenge.



"As far as I know dont food allergies also cause digestive upset? As his stools stayed consistent throughout the elimination process."

Not necessarily ... not even more often than not, in fact. GI distress can be a clue when considered along with all other symptoms, but its presence or absence is definitely not proof for or against food allergy. Remember that food sensitivities/intolerances are different from true allergies. They are ascertained and identified the same way .... with a strict elimination diet ... but have GI issues as a top indicator. In a dog, the top indicator with all three of the top true allergies* is skin pruritis. (The histamine receptors in a dog are mainly in the skin -- unlike ours, which are mainly in the mucus membranes.)




*
#1 is flea allergy (flea saliva dermatitis, flea hypersensitivity ... many names). #2 is inhalant/environmental, or atopy. #3, far behind, is food.




I want to add that, IMO, your GP vet did a far better job than many when faced with what is truly a specialist problem (again, IMO). A typical response to any pruritis in a dog is too apt to be "Oh, it must be a food allergy" (and remember, food allergy is by far the least likely allergy of all, if the dog IS allergic, accounting for only about 10% of dog allergies), followed by "Let's switch to this magic glossy bag of expensive waiting-room kibble" as the first step.




(I am not a health professional. All JMO!)

 Quote: Tracy Collins

Also --are you looking to feed a total raw diet, or will you continue feeding 75% kibble? That does color this a bit.

This colors it for me, too.

I'm not at all a fan of mixing kibble with raw, but also, 25% of a growing pup's diet being questionable, or maybe guessed-at, in terms of calcium content, is different from 100%.

(Neither is desirable, though. A puppy not only requires specific amounts -- and ratios -- of calcium, but he also does not yet have the healthy adult dog's ability to regulate serum calcium in the event of too much calcium being fed. He needs to ingest enough, but not extra, calcium.)

Connie, no chicken has not been re-introduced. I have read food allergies are far less common then other allergies just as you mentioned. I am aware you aren't a specialist but I have been a lurker on here long enough before signing up to know that you know your stuff. With that said I do trust your opinions and would like your opinion on re-introducing the chicken to his diet and relaying any changes via this forum.

 Quote: Tracy Collins

What were the symptoms that prompted the elimination diet? And when you removed chicken, the symptoms went away? Where there ever any digestion/poop issues, or something else, like itching?

During what time of year did you note the symptoms, and when did the symptoms go away? (I'm wondering about a seasonal atopy). ....

 Quote: Aric Buss

...The symptoms were itchy red ears and hot spots. Yes when chicken was removed within 72 hours ears looked better, less itching. two of three hot spots went away, then vet recommended removing turkey, I obliged however 24 hours after removal of turkey third hot spot started to go away rapidly. Perhaps it had nothing to do with the turkey being removed. the symptoms first occured in December and went away quickly after chicken was removed.

 Quote: Aric Buss

Up until december he was being fed other sources of raw, rabbit, duck, turkey ect and was doing great

How long had he had the itchy red ears and hot spots? It sounds a little like everything, from first symptoms to clearing up with removal of chicken, happened in a few weeks. Is that accurate?


How old is he?


(It may not sound like it, but I'm asking these questions for the same reason Tracy is .... to feel for the possibility of something other than food and to look for clues, like the GI symptoms that don't mean a lot by being absent but can help point to food when present).

Seeing as more than one of you are against my current feeding regime perhaps I shouldl feed strictly kibble until he is at least 12 months old. In the time between now and then education myself further with raw feeding.

Yes thats quite accurate, he is exactly 7 months old, an australian cattle dog.

You probably know that all of us responding in this thread so far are pro-raw.

But a growing puppy of any breed (and added to that, a dog of a breed that's vulnerable to skeletal and joint problems) needs the diet to be calcium-correct (among other factors).

Tracy's suggestion about duck RMBs, along with the other ones he mentioned, is a great one (I hadn't even thought of duck). Rabbit RMBs too. If you can get enough of these digestible bones to provide the ratio of RMBs laid out here http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32656&page=1#366439 , then a careful raw diet could be accomplished.


About the challenge .... A food challenge has to be at least as strict as the elimination diet. You would test for the apparent allergen with re-introduction. It takes between a couple of days and a couple of weeks for symptoms for reappear. But there can be no other additions or deletions during the challenge, because that would muddy the results.

" ... your opinion on re-introducing the chicken to his diet and relaying any changes via this forum?"

If I were you, I'd probably check with the vet (who obviously has a better grasp of how food allergies are pinpointed than many GP vets, and good for her, because derm is a specialty for a good reason!), and ask her to guide you through a challenge. And also, of course, keep posting. Does this sound doable? Even a phone call to the vet, explaining your plan and asking for her approval and any suggestions, would be good.

The dog's symptoms are completely gone, right? That needs to be in place before any challenge is done.

All JMO!

Yes, I have just started learning about raw feeding before getting this pup. I understand the pro's of feeding raw, thats why I posted as I do want to figure out a way to feed raw if the allergy is true. The reason I haven't fed completely raw is due to not yet knowing the correct amount of information that I feel is necessary to feed correct amount of vitamins, calcium ect. A challenge sounds like a great next step, I will give my vet a call tomorrow. Should any of the other meats be fed that he is accustomed to? Or strictly kibble amd chicken?

Yes all symptoms are 100% gone.

Nothing should be fed during a challenge except the foods that he has been eating (with no symptoms) for at least three weeks. That is, the foods that he has eaten for three weeks and had no symptoms for that three weeks .... plus only the added chicken (as the challenge).

No turkey ... a challenge has to be one at a time, very strictly, to pinpoint the exact allergen (if any).

Has he been free of symptoms for at least three weeks?


"Kibble" is not precise enough .... kibbles are filled with multiple ingredients. It must be only the kibble that he has been symptom-free on for at least three weeks.


The chicken he was eating while he had symptoms ... it had no injected flavorings, did it? If it did, we need to back up a little more.


It's important not to hurry into this without being precise and strict, because if you're not, then you may, for example, attribute recurring symptoms to chicken when they are actually triggered by, say, a grain protein in a new kibble, or by something else. For me, it's very important not to "waste" a trial like this by accidentally introducing something he was not eating during the symptom-free period.

But now that you have done a trial, it does seem to be a good plan (JMO) to go ahead and do the follow-up challenge, with careful steps.



You might want to make a list of these points before the vet returns your call so you and she can be in complete agreement.


Sound okay?


Then later, we can certainly help with deciding on, reading about, and devising a raw diet. You have probably noticed that there are several very experienced and knowledgeable raw feeders here. I'm thinking that there are probably half a dozen to a dozen regulars who fit that description.