Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Brianah Maloney ]
#390531 - 05/01/2014 02:58 PM |
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I'm not sure I would use that method in training a solid recall. Training a recall, IMHO, needs to be highly positive and fun for a dog. The approach you seem to have taken is more compulsive. Eventually, he will come, not because he wants to but because he knows he will get a correction if he doesn't. When I recall any of the dogs I've had, they turn or drop what they are doing immediately and race to me, 100% of the time. They know something good is waiting for them, a treat, a pat, a party, etc.
The way I've learned to train a recall is to start with playing puppy ping pong. Two people, start about 30 feet apart, loaded with treats. One holds the dog while the other calls "come". Dog races to the other person, person marks, treats, and has a party, jumping up and down, lots of pats, and praise. Then that person holds the dog and the process repeats. Eventually, increase the distance, to include blind recalls around corners and from different rooms. Finally, move the whole process outside and begin again. The dog has a blast doing it and it's great exercise because they do get very tired.
If the dogs balks halfway or gets distracted, I don't correct. I keep upbeat, repeat the command, always upbeat, and walk to the dog, holding my arms out in a very welcoming, come-here gesture, until the dog notices. Then I lure the dog, backpedalling, with the come command, gestures, and make it fun for the dog to follow me back to where I recalled him from. Once there, mark, treat, and party again. I never go to correct or punish a dog while teaching the recall. It needs to be the most fun thing for the dog to do, come when called because something good is waiting for him when he gets there.
Anyway, that's my approach that I learned from some pretty good trainers and it has worked tremendously. Like Bob said, the recall and a solid down are the two most important commands the dog should learn. I've recalled or downed Bailey and my other previous dogs even while they wanted to charge someone comming into our yard or chase a squirrel. That's been the best test and so far, they've been solid with it so it's worked for me. I'm sure others may weigh in also. Just something to consider.
Thanks Greg, I actually don't use the eCollar for the recall it self and lately I've been using a ball as motivation to come however I could use some advice for phasing out the ball to ensure he comes even when he knows I don't have the ball? The eCollar comment was mainly for sits, downs and heeling - I never make the recall a negative thing. The recall always stays positive, it always gets a good boy, and right now 90% of the time gets the ball tossed. It is helping a multitude of things such as the relationship with him, the drop it, the return w/ ball and the recall. As I believe someone mentioned, any suggestions for introducing distractions?
The girlfriend and I plan to start working on something similar to the puppy ping pong but we have a hard time working with him together due to schedule conflicts. Below I've posted how I have been rewarding the recall with the ball. I've been considering one of those ball clips offered by Leerburg to help kinda keep it out of sight?
Axle out doing something else....
Me : Axle Come!
Axle : Comes to me, sits.
Me : Good boy & toss ball.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390532 - 05/01/2014 03:55 PM |
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I guess I've been blessed. All the dogs we had, especially Bailey, have been highly driven by food rewards. I'll use a ball or tug toy as a reward for other behaviors like an "out" but I've just always used treats, following the principles of marker training. The key, IMHO, is to train the recall as part of your marker training, like you would any other command or behavior. Then, what separates the recall from other things I train is the wild, extensive praise and partying after I've marked the behavior and given the treat. Eventually, I make the treat more of a random thing but we always praise lavishly and celebrate or party for a few seconds with her with every good recall. That way, I'm not messing with a ball.
I wish I could offer more effective advice.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390533 - 05/01/2014 04:05 PM |
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The girlfriend and I plan to start working on something similar to the puppy ping pong but we have a hard time working with him together due to schedule conflicts.
It doesn't have to be with two people. You can do it alone. I sometimes simply put my dog in a sit and walk to somewhere else in the house, or when outside, somewhere else in the yard or around a corner. Then I work recalls that way. Gives you some exercise also. Another thing you might consider is just random recalls when you're both doing something else. I might be in the kitchen and my dog might be laying down in the living room by my wife. I usually have some treats with me most times anyway and I'll just give her a random recall at the least expected time. Same end result, you then mark, treat, and party.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Greg Meyer ]
#390541 - 05/01/2014 06:15 PM |
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I guess I've been blessed. All the dogs we had, especially Bailey, have been highly driven by food rewards. I'll use a ball or tug toy as a reward for other behaviors like an "out" but I've just always used treats, following the principles of marker training. The key, IMHO, is to train the recall as part of your marker training, like you would any other command or behavior. Then, what separates the recall from other things I train is the wild, extensive praise and partying after I've marked the behavior and given the treat. Eventually, I make the treat more of a random thing but we always praise lavishly and celebrate or party for a few seconds with her with every good recall. That way, I'm not messing with a ball.
The girlfriend and I plan to start working on something similar to the puppy ping pong but we have a hard time working with him together due to schedule conflicts.
It doesn't have to be with two people. You can do it alone. I sometimes simply put my dog in a sit and walk to somewhere else in the house, or when outside, somewhere else in the yard or around a corner. Then I work recalls that way. Gives you some exercise also. Another thing you might consider is just random recalls when you're both doing something else. I might be in the kitchen and my dog might be laying down in the living room by my wife. I usually have some treats with me most times anyway and I'll just give her a random recall at the least expected time. Same end result, you then mark, treat, and party.
More great stuff from Kristen and Greg.
Nothing wrong with the ball, of course! But I almost always want to do (or have) something for the recall, whether I happen to have a ball or not. Even just a belly rub or lavish praise (if that's this dog's currency), or tiny training treats .... I do celebrate the recall! * (And, as Bob pointed out, the down can be as life-saving as the recall.)
*
See below from an older thread ....
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390542 - 05/01/2014 06:17 PM |
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Here is how I learned to train the recall to my pet dog. Honest to God, it finally clicked in my head one day while someone was trying to call their dog away from Turbo and I on a walk.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
We've all seen this scenario before.
Owner yelling repeatedly for their dog to "Come on".
After yelling for a few minutes, all the while the dog ignoring them, they resort to "Want a treat?"
Then the dog comes BLAZING in like it's @$$ is on fire.
Why not train the recall the same way the dog learned "Want a treat?" That bribe could easily become a recall command with a little tweaking.
That IS my recall training! Maybe not in those words, but every beginning recall results in a party with champagne and cocktail wieners.
The dog is never called and then corrected, and is simply reeled in when there is non-compliance (no correction and no reward).
... Every good thing inside all day start with the recall. Supper? Recall first. Ride? Same. Treat? Same. Walk? Same. Something not fun? Go get the dog.
... I never call the dog if I have ANY doubt, unless I have reinforcement (long line). Otherwise, he learns that it's optional.
... I I NEVER play keep-away.
... This basic foundation is done for a good period of time in my house, and the dog is not ever off-lead outside the fenced yard until it's solid, then venue-proofed, then distraction-proofed.
I have a friend who stands in the doorway and yells "TREATS!" and all of her 5 small dogs come a-runnin', screeching into the house and gathering like a cult at her feet.
I tend to use the reward less as a bribe... LOL.
But the point that the dog WANTS to hear that recall is a very very good point. I want my dog to pick up his head, perk up his ears, and dash to me, THRILLED to be called.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390553 - 05/01/2014 08:58 PM |
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I got a half dozen recalls in PUBLIC today from my 3 year old Golden, Trooper.
As I have written elsewhere, he is a GREAT dog (and I am no professional train though somewhat knowledgeable *).
(* Being a bit knowledgeable means I have NO EXCUSES for crappy results.)
This was a FANTASTIC SUCCESS for us and since he won't "take treats" in PUBLIC we just PARTIED a few second until I sent him back to "GO PLAY".
We'll keep doing this. Maybe one day (soon?) I can get this with another dog around in public.... <SIGH>
I was also successful with my (other) puppy on the back deck today, just trying to run away from her (also on a long line just in case) and getting her to chase me.
I can't run fast (bad knees and hip) so after a few minutes it was impossible to get away from her.
WOW that felt good! (Even if the arthritis hurt it was worth it.)
--
HerbM
Mod: removed bracket to"fix"post
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Herb Martin ]
#390554 - 05/01/2014 09:01 PM |
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"I got a half dozen recalls in PUBLIC today from my 3 year old Golden, Trooper. "
This is huge, Herb!
P.S.
Want to open another thread about dogs who don't want food rewards out in the exciting world? Not at all uncommon, and there are ways to gradually ease into it.
Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/01/2014 09:01 PM)
Edit reason: P.S.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390556 - 05/01/2014 09:43 PM |
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390558 - 05/01/2014 09:48 PM |
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Honestly if Axle sees or knows I have the ball on me...that dog will do ANYTHING for me - I just don't know if it's a good thing to keep luring him and then not being able to reward him with the ball if say I don't have it on me one day while we're out...
I think either way it's working and will take a lot of patience and constancy.
Take today for instance, I work for the local police department, there was a roaming dog at the park - not safe for anyone or himself. So I called it in, told the ACO if he had to see me I'd be in the softball field training. Well he came over to chat a bit, when I noticed he was coming over - I went and recalled him without hesitation he came right for me, it was great. I hooked up the leash to make sure I had control and he wouldn't dart to meet the ACO. We walked over towards him, half way I put him in a sit and he stayed perfectly sitting while I walked over and talked to the ACO... Then I recalled him, he came right for me sat nicely I praised the living hell out of him, then I let him "free" (our release word) and he began introducing himself to the ACO. Verbal corrections for some minor jumping which he corrected beautifully for.
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Re: Importance of Recall
[Re: Rob Maltese ]
#390562 - 05/01/2014 11:28 PM |
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Things that will contaminate the recall.
Calling the dog when it's distracted. Training for distractions is something often over looked.
Calling the dog to see if it's learned it yet.
This is something that just lets the dog know it doesn't have to come all the time.
Calling the dog to punish it. WOW, this is a biggie!
Dogs connect the very last thing it did to the correction or reward. The last thing this dog did was come to you. Think about it. If its digging a hole in the yard and you call it, in the dog's mind what was it corrected for.
I will reward a recall even if I just gave the dog a "leave it" command or yelled at it.
Here, Come, whatever, should be the absolute best thing a dog can do.
I've talked about "random reward" often.
The recall is something I will reward every single time even if it's just a happy greeting from me.
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