Hey Shelli,
Been there! Your dog's behavior is fairly typical of the high attitude herders, and the training advice from positive-only desensitization trainers is typical as well. Personally, I think corrections are in order.

If your girl is like mine, the reactivity isn't necessarily fear-based, it is fun for the dog. I think being reactive gives my dog a "high". Giving advice on-line is tricky, but, first, give this article a read. http://www.planethund.com/eng/modern-dog-training-methods-softies-science-ethics-review-2005.html.

A fool-proof recall, coupled with a heel that is not broken until you give the OK, is the solution, but that probably will need to be combined with corrections, either with e-collar, or with prong/leash. Lots of information out there on proper e-collar training, start with Bart Bellon or Michael Ellis. Read up, get familiar with techniques, and choose/combine what is best for you and your dog if you go the e-collar route.

While distance and under threshold work might get the job done eventually, herding breeds can be a bit, well, intense, and the recall/heel method, with corrections layered in correctly, works quickly and effectively. You should enjoy walking your dog, and your happiness is important. Continually trying to work under threshold with the highest trigger (other dogs) is frustrating, tiring, and no fun for anyone.

"The missing factor in your desensitizing equation is distance. Based on what I'm reading, you are not applying enough distance to lower your dog's reactivity."


HUGE ditto.



"My best advice to you with this dog is to teach a solid recall. IMO It's the best OB command. It'll work in daily life as well as life in the herding pen when you need it. Sometimes it's the most difficult command but there is enough info on this site that you should be able to tailor make a training program to work for you. A recall under distraction is a fabulous tool. It's not easy, but it's fabulous."


Also HUGE ditto.



It's crucial that this work is begun outside the dog's reactive zone. That means that if the dog reacts, you are too close.



Have you read any of the desensitizing threads here? If not, post back and I'll find some. They are step-by-step and detailed.

FWIW, I'm no positive-only desensitization trainer. I use corrections, but I try to be fair and only give corrections when the dog is bonded with me and fully understands what I expect. I try to select the right tool for the task.

I don't believe that you and this dog know each other well enough for him to be willfully disobeying you. Teach him that he doesn't need to react, THEN correct him for it, if necessary.
How many times has he been to herding class? Would you expect him to know what to expect on the first outing? It took six months of going to club meetings before I could get my reactive dog to even focus on me. Two years later, we are still expanding her reactive zone. I tried prong corrections, and it hurt our relationship because I was putting undue stress on her. As soon as I moved away from the group, we started seeing progress.

ETA; the example in the article posted above is BS. Noone rewards a dog for stopping bad behavior when he finally tires of it. That is a bloated example. Same situation... dog has no idea how to behave, but he gets nicked and has no clue what he did wrong.

Edited by Duane Hull (06/09/2014 08:05 PM)
Edit reason: eta

delete dupl

Sure, you can tell the dog to heel and correct him when he breaks it. I do it every day. But how does that help the dog deal with the stress of being too close to a trigger? It doesn't. It tells the dog, "You're going to obey me, no matter how uncomfortable the situation I put you in!"

IMHO, you need to have a strong bond with a dog if you're going to send that message.

I'd recommend more herding. Perhaps you could get a few ducks. It sounds to me like your dog is desperate to boss, to move, to control others ------like a lab can be obsessed over a ball.

If you could find an outlet for the dog's inbred desire I think that she would train more easily and become less reactive in situations which are "non-work", i.e. going for a walk on leash.

I own 2 herders -- one is so smart, his brains can be occupied by other games, tasks, behaviors.
The other, an English Shepherd, wants to herd, period. When no work is offered he begins to lock onto everything on the farm, pigeons, airplanes, cars. A little cattle moving and he becomes a nice calm dog once again.

I'm a HUGE fan of markers with reward. That doesn't mean NO corrections as many would have you believe.
In order for you to have control over the dog it has to respect you and look to you for leadership.
Training with no corrections can only be done with the dogs respect towards you as it's pack leader, having the right dog, understanding dog behavior and understanding how to control your dogs triggers and thresholds. Without that your doing nothing more then performing circus tricks with the dog.

Duane also mentioned being to close to a trigger.
Triggers are what gets your dog excited.
Thresholds are how close or how much exposure you can show the dog without the trigger setting it off.
It all leads up to to much distraction to early in the training.

Thanks all for your advice, tips and opinions - it's greatly appreciated. I'm getting a much better sense of the big picture of what I need to do for her and it's good to hear different perspectives. I would like to read through some more of the desensitizing threads - I tried to do a search but I think I'm doing it wrong as I'm not getting a specific list of topics.

We do marker training with her and she's great during sessions, even offering behaviors(we also work on simple things during walks) but all bets are off if a dog shows up. I do get the impression that the reacting could be *possibly* rewarding for her. Her big thing seems to be wanting to go towards the other dog often times, rather than away from it. But then other times, if we do a U turn to increase distance, she is fine. And then still at other times, she can be surprised at a fence with barking dogs and calm down enough that I can walk past but she'll spot a dog 100 yards away in a field and incessantly whine about it. It's like there's no real pattern. She can also be bossy and controlling, not necessarily with me, but moreso with my husband and with our beagle.

She will be starting herding training in July - the first time I brought her was just an evaluation to see if she had drive and instinct for it, which she appears to have in spades. She seemed very joyful doing it as well - I think it could be a real positive outlet for her. I'd love to get her into agility at some point but I will revisit that one down the road. I don't want to push anything else until we have a much more solid obedience foundation and the reactivity under control. She's still very young and fairly new to our household, which I try to remember when I'm feeling frustrated. The good thing is that she clicked with both myself and my husband right off the bat. Definitely a velcro dog but our old girl was like that too.

For some dogs, like mine for one, posturing and reacting to other dogs is definitely self-rewarding (i.e., a "self-gratifying behavior"); the dog doesn't need a reward to be gratified by the behavior. The same holds true for other behaviors, as well, such as biting, fence-fighting, and crittering. That's what Kiersten meant when she said your dog might doing it for fun rather than out of fear.

Self-gratifying behaviors can be a huge obstacle for training, especially for working dogs, and usually must be eliminated.

 Quote: Shelli Kelley

Thanks all for your advice, tips and opinions - it's greatly appreciated. I'm getting a much better sense of the big picture of what I need to do for her and it's good to hear different perspectives. I would like to read through some more of the desensitizing threads - I tried to do a search but I think I'm doing it wrong as I'm not getting a specific list of topics. ...

Here are a few .... sorry I didn't get to this until today:


http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24232&page=3#251762

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24232&page=2#251709

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24388&page=1#253407

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24232&page=2#251711