We have dabbled in herding however it will take far too much training to get him to a point of being safe around livestock.Sheep and other small animals he goes for the neck. Cattle and other large animals he goes for the face/nose. I would rather focus on the tracking until he is as good as he can be then start to explore other venues more in depth.
Hydro does put his nose to the ground when game or persons cross a roadway or any other hard surface tracking. But when we are in the bush or even a field its 60% head up 40% head down
Perhaps the Canadian Kennel clubs rules are similar to the AKC.. I will need to look further into it..

IMO, JMO, IME; Fight drive is different from pure prey drive. Fight drive, to some degree, involves the dog's hormones and defensive tendencies, and can be altered by early neutering. Prey drive, if imprinted early and strongly, is not affected by hormones and I haven't seen any indication that fixing a dog affects it's prey drive. I would also add that many people feel like fixing alpha males and females improves their focus and engagement.

The old philosophy that obedience training dampens a dog's working ability and drives was spawned by old school trainers that were using compulsion. With modern reward-based training methods, I don't see that at all. If you watch the free videos here, you will see all of the trainers doing engagement, marking, and shaping sessions with wee babies. All of the new puppies in our club are taught basic positions and fuss by the time they are four months. Keep in mind that a BH can be easily achieved by the fifteen month minimum, and IPO1 by eighteen months is not difficult either, so you can use these ages at targets and implement obedience according to this schedule.

I don't necessarily understand the point about a dog not being allowed to compete if he's not in fight drive. Almost all modern sport protection training is prey based training, and I work with dogs every week that do all of their protection training in prey drive, without ever being pushed into defense or going into real fight drive. A sleeve-oriented dog will fight for the sleeve and stay in prey drive the whole time, bearing in mind that "defense of prey" is part of prey drive.

curious, and I ask cos I genuinely don't understand, how does one tell a dog acting in extreme prey drive and one acting in fight drive???


I have seen dogs literally being beaten with a baton and thrown form pillar to post with a decoy rolling on top of them on the ground, smothering them etc. the dogs show no stress, have great grips and shake, counter, bite inwards etc. these dogs have been considered to be straight prey animals with little or no defence. just lots of incremental pressure in training and experience at getting wins and having max fun doing it from a very young puppy.


look at the pressure put on some baby puppies on the upper inside arm in KNPV, that's where they start them, fight drive? I doubt it.

are terriers getting the crap beat out of them underground anything but high prey dogs??

Speaking only for myself and what I've learned working dogs for the last couple of years, fight drive incorporates some level of defense, and is an escalation of prey and defense. As I said before, I work with a lot of dogs that stay in prey, even when engaged with a helper. I have heard judges comment on it when critiquing protection routines.

From my own experience, some dogs that are strong in prey can take pressure, engage the helper, win the sleeve, and do it all in prey drive (taking into account that "defense of prey" is a part of prey drive, hence the remaining engaged regardless of how intense the struggle gets). Other dogs, like my own, go into defense as soon as you put any pressure on them. You can tell the difference between fighting my dog and fighting with one that is trying to take the sleeve.

Real protection training nowadays is started in prey and has defense layered over it. These are developed before the dog is pushed into fight drive. For the most part, the days of forcing a dog to fight are behind us. No, putting pressure on a prey dog while it is hanging from your arm is not "starting it in fight drive".

What you described is 100% correct. Some staight prey drive dogs can fight all day and never get stressed. Try rolling on the ground with one that IS stressed.

Bob could tell you more about a terrier's drives than I can, but a terrier that's getting trounced pbly goes into fight drive, as I'm sure some self-defense kicks in.

Got carried away and skipped your first question...

You already described a dog fighting in prey. A dog who has gone through defense to get into fight drive will have a more serious bark, usually the tail is flat, and the hackles might be up. This dog may appear less confident and stay closer to the handler, though he will come forward as he is agitated. This dog is more prone to growling and shaking on the sleeve. This dog may come off the sleeve and bite you somewhere else.

Watch threshholds. A prey dog barks to draw the helper closer, and when you are teaching a bark and hold, the helper advances and rewards for barking. A defense dog barks to drive the helper away. The helper flinches alot and acts like he is scared. When the dog stops barking, the helper advances and agitates, opposite of working the prey dog.

FWIW, I find it much easier to get good, intense barking from the defensive dog.

my point is how does one tell the difference between a well trained prey monster and a dog in fight drive, asking cos of my ignorance on the matter.

some would say take the sleeve off and throw it on the ground and you will tell the difference or go straight at the dog and you will know the difference, I says that is only a difference in the training not the genetic drive of the dog.

look at this dog, I really like him, this is a GREEN dog, he has been written off by some as a prey only dog, unfortunately the clip I wanted to post has been taken down it was a bit more extreme and hard to watch. some say the vocalising implies nerves and he grip shifts and the dog would bail in a fight. all those things have been proven untrue.

had another look for original test, removed, dog had little control on it and the clip was brutal. prolly not a good look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZtm0zbh1bY

same dog;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc8IjlqF39E

The difference is one is hanging on no matter how hard the fight gets, and the other will fight to win because he feels you are a threat to him. You said you think there is a difference in the training, but you may not have seen the difference. Try catching a defensive dog, and yu may acknowledge a difference. I work with both every Wednesday night. I own a defensive dog who had never had any structured bitework until she was 3yo. After 2+ yrs of prey drive development, she still has little interest in the sleeve.

IMO, JMO, based on limited exposure to these few short clips, my take would be that the dog's foundation is in prey. He goes into fight when engaged with the helper, because he's a little soft to the pressure and it brings out a small amount of defense, but his fight drive (drive for self preservation) is good because he does get a little defensive. Even then, he still shows elements of prey in fight drive, and goes back into prey when removed from the helper.

value yr opinion, I am running blind with my training. I have a strong dog, fact is I think he has big defence and is ALSO a prey monster OCD ball drive, that's why I don't think definitions mean much, if they mean anything at all.

what do you think his primary drive is in this clip (my own dog), he had no bite development as a pup but will try bite the shit out of anyone, anywhere, anytime, you starts sh!t with him, works crowd control, nobody has taken him on yet.

I took him to a club who were demoing an elluite import, beautiful dog with a huge, clam full grip, they spent months trying to get the elluite dog to bark, he let out a pathetic whimper at the decoy and they all hugged each other - my dog same age with no zero sleeve work was next.

I knew a few mind sets were going to be shattered compared to their reaction to the elluite dog. long story short the decoy and everyone crapped their pants before I got my dog out of the cage cos he was slamming his muzzle against the crate to get at them.

said dog, (not at club with elluite dog in this clip), decoy bought the arm down too quick and he spat out the leg. there is no whip cracking, disco dancing decoy that plays with the dog since puppy, just a passive decoy at night, at a strange location, with a strange decoy that ran across a 50m in front of the dog with 2 minutes head start on a hard surface a long way from home, and hid from the dog;

sorry for epic post, my bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEWmMe3xlOQ&index=6&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg

It's hard for me to say how much of the dog's drive is based on prey because the equipment is clearly visible on the helper and the dog obviously knows what the equipment means, but he does show some clear signs of defense (returning focus to the agitator after he has "killed" the sleeve, more aggression and intensity). To me, this dog has better balance of prey and defense in his fight drive (and a truer fight drive overall) than the other dog you posted.

Note: the first dog (prey) you posted was almost playful entering the building. The second (more defensive) dog was on edge from the moment you entered the scenario and was more serious the entire time.