Ria not disagreeing with your experiences but it is open to interpretation on the cause and motives of what your dog is doing with the nipping, particularly when we are just going of text and do not live with the dog.

I will say that if yr dog wanted to get you would have been on the ground already with a dog latched onto you, I am not making light, I have seen about as bad as it gets.

these things ie potential handler aggression are not imo topics to be solved on the internet, you need real life help by highly competent people.

just to show you these are my own hands from bites from my own dogs.


there was not one mean intention directed at me but I have had a lot of medical treatment, high power dogs get high power results;

good luck, take care, have fun with yr dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duZwjvpMrPU&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYk-GptUWpU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uYw-NQgcPY&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg&index=22

I'm not debating whether it was his style of play, i agree that it was. What I am saying is it is unacceptable. And I had to get control back, and now. Hence the groundwork for pack structure. I think things are going very well and he is almost ready for more privileges but I am not prepared to move on until I have the tools to control him. Those are ordered and should be coming soon, and then I will start letting him out in the house, ON leash. He will be with me 100% of the time. Then we have other issues to figure out, such as his prey drive and going after my cat. The cat is 14 so I have to make sure there is always supervision and I am hoping I can teach him what things are okay to chase (toys) and what things aren't (cats, squirrels and whatever else comes up).

The fact that you got the animal at two yrs old tells me someone dropped the ball when it came to manners.

It could also be a dog that was removed from its mom very early. Oftentimes they don't properly learn bite inhibition or "normal" give and take when playing.

Quite possibly this is a spoiled dog that ruled the roost and became pushy and obnoxious when things didn't go it's way. That doesn't necessarily mean dominant.

I'm not a big fan of of head halters. To me they physically control the dog but don't do much as to training.

Does he go after you with this on? Then what?

A pinch collar can be great especially along with the dominant dog collar but you need to be confident when using it.


Are you familiar with marker training? It's a fantastic reward based method of training.

Not trying to push anything here but Ed has some great videos addressing this.

Inexperience with this type of dog is something you can't take lightly.

A video of the dog when it's going through these behaviors would be a great help for us here to actually see what's going on.

Actually seeing it's body language can tell us a lot.

MOST importantly are there small children this dog is exposed to? For that matter, ANY children.

No children. We have a 2 year old granddaughter, but she lives 4 hours away and won't be introduced to him until there has been a lot more training and then only under very strict supervision.

We have the groundwork for pack structure ODV and have ordered a prong color, dd collar and leash, just waiting for them to arrive. We live in a very small town in rural North Dakota, so no real access to trainers or equipment here, which is why I didn't just buy a prong collar. I do intend to get more videos and do the online basic obedience class, but we aren't quite ready for that yet.

I guess I am not sure what dominant means, but I am starting to think he is not. I think he was just raised by someone that spoiled him and he needs lots of manners training. I don't have a video of him doing this behavior, but he is doing it with play bows and rushes in, then jumps back. Tail is up high and wagging, ears are up high. That seems like play to me, not true aggression. But he is definitely wanting to be in charge. That is just not going to fly.

My biggest challenge is once we get him going good, I have to do this all over with my pekingese. I can't handle doing them both at once, but we see now he is a spoiled monster, that has been allowed to get away with a lot because he is small and easygoing. But that is going to change. He is 11 so it will probably be harder to train him than Hank!

I am just looking at it as a great project that has the reward of a well trained companion at the end. He is improving every day and shows no aggression to other dogs or even strangers, although he is fearful of quite a few things. But he would rather flight than fight. I don't feel like I am in over my head and if I do, I will find a trainer to help. The one I have talked to so far was anything but helpful.

Hey Ria, once you get the new collars, be careful not to go overboard. He may have never had any thing like that on him, what he thinks about the whole thing may not match what you're expecting. Following a protocol like you are is good, I think, because of the consistency. Don't look for for a specific timeline of something taking a day or two weeks, pay attention to how his behavior changes.

As far as dominant and all that stuff. I say this as someone who spends a lot of time on terminology and theory, probably close to 30 seconds a year, I think its better to not try and fit your dog into the exact descriptions of a lot of the stuff you read. Pay attention to him and what you want.

Steve, thanks for that advice. I am finding that terminology can trip me up, so I am trying to do what you suggest. We are both learning here and I have experienced no fear with this dog, other than those very few incidents when he came after me in the yard. But on reflection, he did NOT actually bite, he nipped at my clothes and it was the horrendous bulldog growly bark that was the most frightening. The one time he really go upset with me, I was checking something I thought might be wrong on his belly and he snapped but not on me, just a warning AT me which was totally legitimate, as far as I am concerned. He could have ripped my face off, but he didn't.

So, I think that with training, mine and his, we are going to get along fine. Consistency, consistency, consistency is the key. I do appreciate all the advice from everyone. I found myself really missing those first few days of petting and having him sleep at my feet, and I will be happy when we reach that phase again and can further developing a new relationship based on respect.

About the prong collar. Is it best to let him wear if for a while before I actually correct him with it? I do intend to do some reading before we start with it and I know it is kind of self correcting if he pulls in it. He is already doing pretty well on walking, but the head collar really doesn't give me as much control as I'd like and he still spends the first few minutes of every walk trying to rub it off. And we use it every time, everyday. Mainly, the correction I am thinking of is when he goes after my cat (so far, he just stomps him, but my cat stands his ground, which I think has kept him from going further) or starts playing too rough. I don't want him to think even a little bit of that is allowed.

Again, thanks, everyone for your feedback. I have been reading tons all over these boards and the training articles and it is good to know I have help.

Something you could do with the collar and leash he has now, get him used to the action or movement of being popped. Casually, with no emotion. Since he wants to chase the cat, maybe think about teaching him "Leave It" right now. You could walk him past things on your property that catch his attention, but not so much that he's too excited about them. Tell him Leave It followed by a light pop and just keep walking. Later on you could use that to tell him to leave the cat alone, along with anything else you want him to ignore.

When you actually put the prong on him, don't just take him into things and places where he's going to not behave and you'll need to try and stop something. Like your doing now, have a plan to teach him whats going on here, all controlled, no surprises for either of you.

Just as a real general idea, I want to teach them what I want them to do. I don't want to spend my time trying to stop things. I want to teach him to accept me putting my hands on him, not having to keep him from biting me on that time I have to check something. And I don't allow teeth on me. Period. There's nothing good about being bit. Touch my hand instead of the toy, games over. Other then young puppies, they know when the difference between you and the toy, but that's a different topic for later.

In my home, looking at the cat is discouraged.

Picking up the cat and moving it makes the cat desirable IME. Better to move the dog away from the cat.

just posing this as a question;

is it really necessary to put the 11yo pek. thru Ed's effective but rather rigorous pack structure training.

geez at 11yo I will just let my dogs do whatever they want, eat whatever they want, sleep wherever they want whenever they want... etc as long as they don't hurt themselves they will get to do whatever they're 11yo heart and mind feel like doing.

Ria said

"
I guess I am not sure what dominant means, but I am starting to think he is not. I think he was just raised by someone that spoiled him and he needs lots of manners training. I don't have a video of him doing this behavior, but he is doing it with play bows and rushes in, then jumps back. Tail is up high and wagging, ears are up high. That seems like play to me, not true aggression. But he is definitely wanting to be in charge. That is just not going to fly."


That whole paragraph makes me feel somewhat better.

I would go with play full, pushy and an obnoxious bully right for now.

Most likely this can be controlled with obedience and proper management.

HUGE DITTO on Steve's post about going slowly with the collar and leash now and the pinch later.

Hard to tell how a dog, even a good dog will react to corrections the first time applied. Aggression, confusion, avoidance are all possible.

Quite possibly the original owners may have tried and just weren't successful because of a lack of commitment.

The Ellis videos are all about motivational training and adding correction only when the dog truly understands what is expected.

To start right of with corrections can easily confuse a dog simply because the dog doesn't necessarily understand why.

I taught that way for many yrs. Does it work? Obviously it does. Many people have titled many dogs with correction training.

My thoughts are why not teach the dog that training is a game and bring in corrections when needed.

Many here can be helpful with both training methods. You want to make the correct fit between you, the dog and the method.

Most will use a good balance of each. of each.