"So do you think that because he does love toys, and will give me soft tugs for now, that we can work into the tug dvd? What would be the next step if not that one?"

hard to say exactly what is best for a dog and handler on the internet.

I don't think you have to have a vigorous tugging match to get the effect.

if the dog enjoys the chase and pounce it does not have to have the dissect.

some clubs here do not allow the handler to put any resistance on the tug because it is considered bite training (lame huh).

they have many high drive super competitive obed soft dogs eg border collies that are as precise and snappy as any gsd/mal.

you can use the food like a prey animal, watch yr fingers. not sure if I should say this but you can get the dog to strike/chase yr food hand and then stop/focus for the reward.

I can do a short vid of it if you want.

nicole , i don't know if you have come across this concept ( yet ) , but michael makes a distinction between " fighters " and " players " .

as you can probably guess , " fighters " refers to those dogs that are highly motivated for the tug , close quarter rough housing and the like . they are not put off by being in close proximity to get the reward , or to return it .

" players " , on the other hand , are more activated by the opportunity to chase . they may have more " spatial sensitivity " which makes the idea of directly physically engaging with the trainer , in the trainers space , so to speak , less appealing when used as a reward .

the important thing in all of this is to recognize into which category your dog tends toward , keeping in mind that the distinction is not always completely black and white . just like we have strengths and weaknesses , so too do our dogs . if you want to get the most from your rewards , you will play to his strengths and pay attention to his weaknesses .

by using a reward technique that does not match with the dogs' preferred drives , you can actually be turning the dog off .

tailor your reward party with what works best for the dog .

As I speak Aries is playing a rowdy game of tug with my 6 year old. I guess she has the magic touch. He is keeping hold of the tug like I've never seen him do with me. (He isn't being possessive or dangerous with her)

Aries is probably more of a player, though I don't know if his fearlessness fits into that. He is very sensitive to spacial pressure from me but not anyone else I have seen including my husband. I haven't found anything that he is afraid of so far.

So I am sensing that it's unanimous for me to move on to perfected heeling and retrieve after I have finished with food, although it's entirely POSSIBLE that he would be fine in tug. And that I should tailor my reward more to chasing the tug and that kind of play soon...because I'm sure he will get bored of even liver before long.

Does that sound right?

I haven't heard Ellis describe those yet, Ian. I need to look that up. Thanks

well nicole , it would be impossible for me to speculate without seeing you and the dog playing together , but off the top of my head , i'd guess the dog is more motivated to win the reward , and has greater expectation of winning the reward , when matched up against a 6 year old as opposed to " fighting " with someone ( you ) who has demonstrated her power and dominance for some time . when playing with you , the expected outcome becomes routine .

That makes complete sense! :-)

Thank you all for lending your know how! I think I can make a better decision on where to go after we have completed power of food.

If you think of more advice I would love to hear it!

IF it works for the dog my choice is always a tug game for reward.

Getting a ball or even food from the handler and the dog has no more need for that handler. It has what it wants.

I want the interaction of me WITH the dog in the tug game.

i never had much success in getting the dog to target the ball ( on a string ) well enough to develop a really satisfying game , for me or the dog .

and even though i have no trouble getting a good retrieve presentation back to me with just a ball , the biggest hurdle to overcome in the dogs' mind is : " i've got the ball , or dad just took it away from me " .

in my opinion , the ball is more of a " players " tool , better used as a chase and retrieve motivator / reward .

mind you , my experience is with border collies , a breed that i would characterize as " players " . we do develop a good tug game , essential as the reward for found articles / persons in SAR work , but i'd say any " fighting " is a rehearsed performance . . . still rewarding on both sides of the article , but not in the " i'm gonna rip your face off if i don't get this thing " tone that an instinctive " fighter " displays .

the item i have had good success with is a ring . i make my own out of poly rope wrapped in hockey tape .

it allows for a good chase when thrown , makes for an easy presentation to the dog , easy for the handler to grasp on retrieve , and a good object for the tug .

i've tried , and do use other items including various tugs , but i keep going back to the ring as the thing that satisfies the " player " and " playing fighter " in the dogs i've handled .

Nicole;

I adopted a mature GSD whose drive for toys and tug had been squashed. It has taken time to build a strong desire in her to tug, but it has been well worth it. It has actually been one of the most fulfilling tasks I've ever undertaken.

It's not as simple as "I'll keep playing with my dog and she will get it". As you've already learned, things like spacial (personal) pressure can influence your dog. Some dogs are either site- or toy- specific. Easily distracted (sharp) dogs can lack the focus needed for good engagement. There are many details to mind, and your success will depend on your drive to manage them.

Many working dogs fight differently with their handler than they do with a playmate. This is the reason that skilled helpers are used as decoys in bite training. Do not be discouraged; it is natural for your dog to interact differently with you than with someone he doesn't have to answer to.