agreed.

the ipo fanatics place great importance on the bark & hold like it is a key pointer to what is really in the dog, (the public just want to see the long bite lol).

the knpv guys place a lot of importance in the object guard like it is a key pointer to what is inside the dog.

everyone has their thing to what is important.

The problems with both the B&H and the object guard is how much is genetics to do the job and how much is training.

Herding is one of the things I see this as an issue.

I've seen herding trials where the dog was doing nothing more the being "placed" by training. It's obvious ( to some) that some of these dogs really don't completely understand what they are doing.

That's the downside of most dog activities today. Good training can cover a lack of natural instincts.

Not always apparent to even someone with a good eye for how "real" the dog is.

it's hard to fake herding when you let dogs go at a point in the middle of nowhere and you just expect them to come back several hours later with every last beast that should be there + a few strays, all without the a single command from the handler and no sign of a stressed animal.

that's the difference imo between a kelpie and a border BC, without the handler the BC does not exist.

unfortunately I do not rate the gsd enough as a herding dog to warrant rating it as a herding dog.

Real world herding (what you comment on) is light yrs away from most herding trials as you would guess.

The American Herding Breed Association, AHBA trials are much more realistic then most AKC herding and it's easy to pick out the real "thinking" dogs.

I've seen a number of GSDs that would make good herders.

My own dog Thunder was a natural gathering dog from the first time I turned him loose on sheep.

He took off after the group and it was a very short time he had them wrapped around my legs and held them there.

I "believe" he would have the ability to bring in stock that were out of sight. He LOVED the game.

He did need a little work for driving but his gather was beautiful.

He would also use his bite to control unruly sheep (AKC taboo) but he never laid a tooth on foul. He would grim over the withers or occasionally the flanks.

He also walked down a billy goat that was natorious for punishing dogs that wouldn't stand up to him. No contact at all. Just a ****you look form him and the goat

That was his first time on goats.

Same with his one exposure to cattle. We were walking to the sheep field and had to go through a cattle pen.

The cattle stood their ground and looked like they weren't going to give ground. My herding instructor just said lets see if Thunder can work it out.

Again no force. He slowly (head low, ears forward, stiff legged stalk sort of slow) walked up and went nose to nose with the one in front and they moved out of our way.

He was once attacked by a duck . Honest!

He was holding the ducks in a corner when one came running at him and grabbed hold of the skin on his side. He took a couple of steps, shook the duck off and let it back in the corner with the others.

I do believe there are some good herding GSDs out there and they read the stock as well as the stock reads a dog.

He also handled chickens by accident.

bob , write a book willya ?

working title : " bob scott , my life with dogs "

hollywood will pick it up fer sure . . .

Yeah Bob, write a book please. I'd read it.

After almost 60 of my close to 70 yrs with rarely less then 2-3 at a time I don't think I've got enough time left to write a book.

I'm, hopefully not on my last dog yet but when my 2 GSDs are gone it will be no more then one......well.......maybe two.

Did I just say that with my out loud voice?

SHHHH! The wife is reading over my shoulder.

Mr. Scott,

We are of an age. Some similar life timeline experiences, I presume.

Four rescued GSDs here now, and likely they will be the last. One is going on three years of age, so there is some time before an empty house.

Comforting that the two males are down at my feet, as I type. Rewarding feeling that there is little discord in the 'pack' now. A sense of small accomplishment that the transitory pack has always turned out balanced with new additions fitting in, in time. Comforting and rewarding thinking of the dogs that have come through this place and found their forever home with a good adopting family.

Just dogs. Constant companions. They discourage the unwanted intrusions, every now and then. An added bonus for a curmudgeon.

Another cupa coffee is in order.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Mr. Scott,

We are of an age. Some similar life timeline experiences, I presume.

Four rescued GSDs here now, and likely they will be the last. One is going on three years of age, so there is some time before an empty house.

Comforting that the two males are down at my feet, as I type. Rewarding feeling that there is little discord in the 'pack' now. A sense of small accomplishment that the transitory pack has always turned out balanced with new additions fitting in, in time. Comforting and rewarding thinking of the dogs that have come through this place and found their forever home with a good adopting family.

Just dogs. Constant companions. They discourage the unwanted intrusions, every now and then. An added bonus for a curmudgeon.

Another cupa coffee is in order.

Do you all know how much I really LOVE this place, Guys ??? "Just" dogs...

LOL, like we're ever gonna believe that "just" part, Mike

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Mr. Scott,

We are of an age. Some similar life timeline experiences, I presume.

Four rescued GSDs here now, and likely they will be the last. One is going on three years of age, so there is some time before an empty house.

Comforting that the two males are down at my feet, as I type. Rewarding feeling that there is little discord in the 'pack' now. A sense of small accomplishment that the transitory pack has always turned out balanced with new additions fitting in, in time. Comforting and rewarding thinking of the dogs that have come through this place and found their forever home with a good adopting family.

Just dogs. Constant companions. They discourage the unwanted intrusions, every now and then. An added bonus for a curmudgeon.

Another cupa coffee is in order.

AMEN Mike!

My guys are 11 and going on 8 so time can be short for the 11 yr old for sure.

These two have always been outside dogs but I spend a lot of time with them every day. The wife does also.
My grandkids LOVE both dogs as do the dogs towards the grandkids.

Two dog houses in the garage with a dog door for access. Both dog houses are double walled, insulated with floor heating pads and lots of straw.

A bad day for us can easily be calmed with nothing more then giving the dogs a good scratch, a walk in the parks with them, a game of fetch, most anything doing with the dogs.

I expect you totally understand what I'm saying.

Just remember Mike, the word "curmudgeon" starts with cur.

I believe that has some magical meaning.