Quote: Betty Landercasp

Hubby can hardly walk. The dog grabbed his calf thru thin summer pants, really made a mess.

I'm lobbying for a reprieve. Though, I have to say, I've NEVER been bitten that badly.

West wishes for your poor Husband's speedy recovery, Betty !!!

I too would hope for a reprieve from him citing "handler error" and also hoping for Better Management practice in future -- How about a two week course of FULL GROUNDWORK protocol for your English Shepherd ???

I just spoke to the breeder of my dog.

This dog was bred using frozen semen from a Montana english shepherd long dead. The breeder said that she was not happy with the temperaments of the dogs in the litter. She retained one male pup, and described it as spooky and standoff-ish. The breeder's recommendation was euthanasia. I didn't expect that. She offered me another pup from a different line as a replacement, and said that the temperament of the litter is not representative of English Shepherds.

The dog helped me sort cattle this morning in a thunderstorm and helped me load a steer for slaughter. We have a good relationship. He has learned not to chase deer, cars. He is good on a leash. He sits before he eats - he eats in a crate. He lives NILIF. He has plenty of exercise and a real job.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I just spoke to the breeder of my dog.

This dog was bred using frozen semen from a Montana english shepherd long dead. The breeder said that she was not happy with the temperaments of the dogs in the litter. She retained one male pup, and described it as spooky and standoff-ish.

The breeder's recommendation was euthanasia.

I didn't expect that. She offered me another pup from a different line as a replacement, and said that the temperament of the litter is not representative of English Shepherds.

The dog helped me sort cattle this morning in a thunderstorm and helped me load a steer for slaughter. We have a good relationship. He has learned not to chase deer, cars. He is good on a leash. He sits before he eats - he eats in a crate. He lives NILIF. He has plenty of exercise and a real job.

Maybe the Breeder is worried you might want to SUE her, Betty (???)

That is NOT what I would choose to do with this dog, but of course, it's between you & your husband to decide -- IMHO, your Own Relationship with the ES is one of Firm Leadership ... However, you did mention your Husband is a "gentle & mild-mannered man" (certainly GOOD characteristics) although a Tough WORKING Dog might not Respect SUCH Traits when "push comes to shove" with The Pinker

Anyway, I'm just "thinking out loud" here...

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

A much worse Father's Day outcome occurred here at our farm.

Our English Shep, Lad, a tough dog, uncastrated male, 80 lbs bit my husband on his calf, badly.

Dear hubby, a physician, a mild and gentle man, was trying to back up the ES by waving his leg -- the ES had been giving the Pinker the stink eye over space in the garage which the ES considers "his". Hubby got between them.

I saw it coming, saw the "stink eye", did not react fast enough, or the dog got mad too fast, whatever.

This could lead to the death of this dog and it really was my fault for not reacting faster ... I was transplanting flowers and was right there but not paying attention.....

We are feeling pretty bad.

Betty, here's what I mean by "better Management practice" in future:

An ounce of prevention is WORTH a POUND of Cure -- Easier said than done (I Know) but at my house, this assertive ES would NEVER be allowed to even think he could "call ANY shots" in my presence ... If someone living with me could Not Control the assertive dog's actions toward the "underling dog", then I would never let these 2 dogs be loose together in close quarters & expect them to interact as if they were Beatific BEST Buddies.

Appreciating all input.



When the "incident" occurred, the Pinker was outside the garage, behind me, where I was potting plants, and the ES was inside lying at the feet of my hubby, who was putting on his boots. I look up from the pot, and saw the ES gazing past me toward Pink with the fixed stare "stink eye" which proceeds conflict.
I said, from a crouched position with my plant, "Knock it OFF, Lad!" and my dear husband moved toward the dog, to back dog up. We walk into the ES and back him up frequently, he knows to give ground.
The ES then gave HUBBY the evil eye, which hubby saw. It made hubby a little angry, that look, defiant . Anger is contagious. Hubby put his foot out, and the ES grabbed his calf. The ES still did not show any sign of backing off, so hubby manouvered a plastic garbage can between himself and the ES and the ES went backwards into his crate, and I shut the door.

It is a big garage. No one was "cornered". It was all ridiculous. It makes me mad and sad.

GEEZ! All I had to say was, "Laddy go to your CRATE " and that would have been the end of it.

Betty,

This is a tough one. Sounds like you have a thoughtful, caring and honest breeder. I've been thinking all day what I would do in a similar situation. I haven't come up with any great insights, other than it comes down to whether you can manage this dog appropriately in every possible situation for the rest of his life, knowing that he can and will bite like this. Obviously I don't know the dog, so I can't say whether the benefits of your working relationship with him outweigh the risks.

It's a genuinely heartbreaking situation, and I'm so sorry.

Anytime multiple dogs live together owners need to be vigilant .....especially with high drive working dogs. They ramp up faster & tend to hold that state of mind longer. Even more so with dogs that carry an 'edge' with each other.

It's a hard call, Betty. Do you think that the dog would have the same reaction if the same situation would present itself or do you think it was a one time incident? Kind of the perfect storm of both dogs & hubby making an action perceived by the dog as aggression or was the dog just pissed off & hubby just happened to be an opportunity to redirect is attitude toward pinkey?

Can you live with the dogs always separated? Been there with 3 w/l GSDs that I had to keep separated. Let me tell you it is a major PITA..not to mention stressful. Open the wrong door etc & all he'll breaks out. Not a fun way to live..especially for years. Fortunately it was only me in the house..but add other housemates & the risk of a mix up increases.

Interesting that the breeder was so forthcoming. The litermates must have been pretty bad for her to so readily suggest euthanasia. The whole thing is such a shame for you & hubby. I hope he heals quickly with no after effects.

Betty,

This is a truly heart breaking situation with no easy answer. I just wanted to add ... some people that have been bitten remain fearful of the dog. Unfortunately, some dogs are aware of this fear and it can result in a repeat performance. I hope this is not the case with your husband but you might want to watch for this.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Appreciating all input.

When the "incident" occurred, the Pinker was outside the garage, behind me, where I was potting plants, and the ES was inside lying at the feet of my hubby, who was putting on his boots. I look up from the pot, and saw the ES gazing past me toward Pink with the fixed stare "stink eye" which proceeds conflict.

I said, from a crouched position with my plant, "Knock it OFF, Lad!" and my dear husband moved toward the dog, to back dog up. We walk into the ES and back him up frequently, he knows to give ground.

The ES then gave HUBBY the evil eye, which hubby saw. It made hubby a little angry, that look, defiant . Anger is contagious. Hubby put his foot out, and the ES grabbed his calf. The ES still did not show any sign of backing off, so hubby manouvered a plastic garbage can between himself and the ES and the ES went backwards into his crate, and I shut the door.

It is a big garage. No one was "cornered". It was all ridiculous. It makes me mad and sad.

GEEZ! All I had to say was, "Laddy go to your CRATE " and that would have been the end of it.

Sorry Betty, more details / different story / harder decision / greater heartache...

If you lived ALONE with these dogs, NO problem, and that's what's so SAD How do you manage the ES when you have House Guests, especially KIDS visiting, is he kept in an Outdoor Kennel-Run during those times ???

Not many "average Pet owners" want to live with what amounts to a dangerous dog if / when it isn't handled Just Exactly right -- So I understand your Husband's anger or fear, and maybe even call it "common sense" plain & simple...

But you are not merely the "average Pet owner" -- You employ a Working Dog as your go-to partner on a Working Farm to assist YOU with Tough Jobs ... Maybe this ES does NOT need to be allowed Inside the Garage anymore, and does NOT need to interact with your Husband as a "house pet" at all, but can be Maintained ENTIRELY Outdoors and ONLY handled by You ???

Again, I'm just "thinking aloud" here & trying to figure out any possible WIN-WIN solution for Everyone, Betty.

The breeder sounds responsible. She did not have to volunteer the frozen seman details and said she would replace the pup. Frankly, breeders do not volunteer that you should put a pup to sleep. She sounds familiar with you and your husband, and she did not try to 'blame' you or make excuses for the dog.

For me personally, hubby can't get attacked. I have a rooster in the freezer that would run across the property to attack my husband. Being a pain in the ass is one thing, being a danger to a person (after reasonable training and precautions) is not good. We were worried about when the grandkids visited. A toddler would be an easy target and while everyone can be careful, you cannot control everything all the time.