Ill definitely implement the bring command Duane. Thanks for the advice.

We have made some minor progress over the last two nights. I have literally encouraged him to jump on me after he gets the tug, which seems to have improved his desire to take the tug towards me and keep playing. However, I think the bring command would really change the situation for the better so I will work on that!

Thanks,

Dan;

Welcome. Sorry I had not greeted you sooner, but I have not been here regularly since my dog broke her tooth and our whole program changed.

I am in no way disputing what anyone has said. I avocate and use Michael Ellis' Advanced Concepts that Ian is coaching you in. That is how I started my dog, and that is how I coach handlers with young pups that have good drive. The building enthusiasm-for-the-tug/handler/game concept worked to a point with my dog, but her drives were so repressed that we got to a point but struggled to get to the peak.

When I changed stream and backchained the retrieve using her food drive, she lit up and immediately began returning the tug to me. The only thing that differed in my experience from what Bob has suggested is that I was easily able to transfer my dog's drive from the food to rewarding with a rebite.

Sadie still doesn't have out-the-box prey drive like most of the dogs that I work with at our club, but she stays engaged and peaks in prey drive during our sessions (well, until a few months ago when she broke her tooth; she still wants to play, but I have to restrict the hard tugging). When her grips are weak, we can out her for a rebite and the next bite is deep and hard, as illustrated in the video...

https://www.facebook.com/david.billiot.1/videos/vob.734932024/10202158363785412/?type=2&theater

I realize that the video is bitework and we are talking about tug, but the game of tug leads directly into this work. This work is the result of building prey drive through playing tug.

with one of my Pits it it is hopeless. she doesn't picj up or grab anything, no matter what method I use. astepping bakc, moving the toy like a prey, throwing a tug, a ball - she is not interested.
Only thing she does: steel toys etc from her sister. but I cannot do this anymore, because then she can get really aggressive.
Other thing she does within training sessions: touch an object with her nose. but never picks it up. I've followed Mark Keatings advice to try it with an eye glass case with food in it in the hope, that one day she will pick it up and bring it to me. I am also trying it with an old wallet with various compartments, where she has to search for the hidden food. So she has learned to grab it a little bit in order to avoid that it slips away and she can get access to the food.

But nothing more happens. She isn't interested in this sort of activities. should I give this up. I do not want to demotivate or frustrate her. I'm already trying since at least 6 months, every day just a little bit.
On the other hand, she already has learned things, which I thought she'd never learn, but she did. Only in this case, there seems to be no motivation at all.

good call duane . . . ( could not access the vid tho )

dan , get a bunch of info , process them , try them out and use what works for ya .

christina , you have to use what works for the dog , and not try to force it otherwise you can actually create an aversion for the activity . particularly if you are trying to use the game , whether it be food or a toy , as a reward for another behaviour . you can diminish their enthusiasm for that behaviour by forcing a reward that isn't rewarding .

if she does nose an object even a little , that could be the beginning of a fun little shaping game that may or may not result in a retrieve but could be just a fun thing to do with the dog .

Thanks, Ian, so happy to hear this. I will follow like you suggest. I've never tried to force her, I'd never do this with an animal. But I can sse, I will have to accept and reward every little step, no matter how long it will need to add the next step.
Thanks so much for your advice, it helps me to go on. And in case she cannot go on in this direction, I will accept it, because this dog has other talents and then I will go on with her in this positive sense.

your welcome christina . . .

when i say " force " , i don't mean FORCE , because i don't believe in that and i can tell you don't as well .

what i meant was , some people will try and try to convince the dog to play or be rewarded one way , when the dog is demonstrating they would prefer something else . i was guilty of it myself . . . continuing to develop the game of tug with henry when he got way more out of it if it was thrown and he chased it .
we switched to a ball on a string and we've been working on it a lot since i've been here at the school , and you know what . . . he gets way more out of the play game now that there is more meaning for him in it , and his tug play has improved because of it .

Thanks Ian! My dog doesn't react at all on throwing whatsoever, unless food, but this of course she will not bring back.
I have box full of toys, different balls with string and without, tugs made out of different materials in different sizes with and without handles, flirt poles, squeaking soft animals and oothers. She doesn't care in the least.
So I will go on letting her touch different things and searching through my old wallet. This she loves, probably because she knows it will be rewarded with food.
Maybe some day will happen a miracle and she picks something up.
Thanks for sharing your experience!

Christine;

Will she take or hold an object for food? If you can teach her to hold an object, you may be able to backchain the retrieve. When I started with Sadie, she had no interest in objects, either. However, her insane food drive helper her to overcome that.

Start, as Ian said, by shaping her touching the item. Then work on having her take the item from your hand.

Thanks for your kindness, Duane.
That's what I'm doing since weeks. She touches an object for food. She learned to grip the wallet a bit, so that it doesn't slip away and to be able to search for the food in it.

I am also training with her to hold an object following a DVD of Michael Ellis. I had first to train for a long time just to hold her mouth gently with both hands, then walk 2 o 3 steps like this, later on to put an object into her mouth. She never takes the item from my hand, merely allows that I put it in. Even this she does halfheartedly for a few seconds. This I'm training every day, but max. three times, as I can see it is no pleasure for her. If she allows it, of course I reward.

While removing the upper hand and still holding one hand underneath her chin, to avoid that the item falls down,I mark and reward too.

But when I remove the hand under the chin, she opens her mouth and lets the object fall. She doesn't grip at all. This then I can not reward. So I have began to leave this last part for the moment, I don't want to demotivate her and I go only until the point, where I can reward.

Understood, Christine.

Ian, try these links. I have resaved it to my profile, which anyone should be able to view. Someone please let me know if these links do not work. Sorry about the quality. I had to transfer the videos several times in order to post.

https://www.facebook.com/duane.hull.9/videos/10153498283602025/

https://www.facebook.com/duane.hull.9/videos/10153498283717025/

There is hope for some dogs with repressed drives. As I said in my earlier post, when I adopted Sadie, she had no interest in objects, tug, or biting.