I only knew three words when I was 10 months...

 Quote: Duane Hull

I only knew three words when I was 10 months...

"You can call me Anything, but don't call me late for Dinner!", and DON'T call me a FRESSER

Interesting about the pack leader not giving up food.

With a puppy in the wild the whole pack will bring food to the litter.

Not knocking another method but "for me" I think reward is whatever keeps the dog's interest without using it as a bribe.

How that reward is used and the timing in it's use is everything but the GSD will respond to anything that is fair.


Greg, I do have the occasional brain fart. I'm old ya know!

Melissa, congrats, well behaved girl!

I can not see at all, why rewarding with food should be bribery.
Of course it all depends, how the delivery takes place.

I do see some kind bribery, when luring. There we are "convincing" the dog to do what we want by attracting him with food. But there we present the food BEFORE the dog shows the desired behavior.

We are leading him with food into that behavior. and I think, for certain exercises this is done with good reasons. Especially for a young dog and novice trainer it is the quickest way to achieve the desired behavior. And like this we can rep many more exercises within the same time and thus shorten the lessons.

But all LB trainers I know, use luring only for a short time. Without doubt, because it can have the effect of a bribery. So they go over to other methods ASAP.

Though most of behaviors are taught without luring, without presenting the food before action. When used as a reward the dog will get it AFTER he's correctly done his job. If we get payed for our work no one would call this bribery.

Apart from this also other rewards (toy, praise, pet) can be used to lure a dog into a behavior. Then it should be called bribery too.

Another thing is, when those rewards are given after the dog has fullfilled his exercise.

Another problem with using just petting, praising as reward, it will be very seldom a reinforcer, as most handlers will be uncapable to do this in the right timing. Result: The dog will not be able to connect the reward with his behavior. In other words: Very unprobable the dog learns what we want him to teach, unless his handler is highly talented and provided he gives a clear markerto the dog (within 1/2 a sec.) as a bridge which promises, handler will now come to pet me or whatsoever.

Christina, in the dog training circles, there is a lot of dialogue about food rewards and bribery. Some old school holdouts won't use food as a reward because they do not understand how to wean the trained dog off of treats and they argue that you will always have to "bribe" a food-trained dog to perform tasks. They will argue this while they use a ball or tug to get focus while heeling.

Unlike luring, bribery in marker training occurs when you don't understand and utilize varying reward schedule so that you end up with a dog who will only perform when he is sure the reward is imminent.

I see lots of pet dog owners who use treats to get their dog in and out of crates, to stop a bad behavior, to avoid distraction, etc., and the dog will not comply otherwise. This is the scenario that experienced dog trainers care to avoid.

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

I can not see at all, why rewarding with food should be bribery.
Of course it all depends, how the delivery takes place.

I do see some kind bribery, when luring. There we are "convincing" the dog to do what we want by attracting him with food. But there we present the food BEFORE the dog shows the desired behavior.

We are leading him with food into that behavior. and I think, for certain exercises this is done with good reasons. Especially for a young dog and novice trainer it is the quickest way to achieve the desired behavior. And like this we can rep many more exercises within the same time and thus shorten the lessons.

But all LB trainers I know, use luring only for a short time. Without doubt, because it can have the effect of a bribery. So they go over to other methods ASAP.

Though most of behaviors are taught without luring, without presenting the food before action. When used as a reward the dog will get it AFTER he's correctly done his job. If we get payed for our work no one would call this bribery.

*****Apart from this also other rewards (toy, praise, pet) can be used to lure a dog into a behavior. Then it should be called bribery too.*****

Another thing is, when those rewards are given after the dog has fullfilled his exercise.

Another problem with using just petting, praising as reward, it will be very seldom a reinforcer, as most handlers will be uncapable to do this in the right timing. Result: The dog will not be able to connect the reward with his behavior. In other words: Very unprobable the dog learns what we want him to teach, unless his handler is highly talented and provided he gives a clear markerto the dog (within 1/2 a sec.) as a bridge which promises, handler will now come to pet me or whatsoever.

Everybody, DOGS INCLUDED. works for Something -- Whether we call it a Paycheck or a "BRIBE" or Incentive & Motivation or SATISFACTION & GRATIFICATION or whatever (yes, could be Praise, Petting, Play the same) ... Dogs in this way, just like people, all work to Please Themselves with some REWARD in the end, IMHO

I tried some food reward the other day. Inga obeys with or without food. I can tell when I am carrying some kind of HV treats her mind is distracted by the food. I don't really like carrying a bunch of food. I use the Yess as a bridge to the reward of praise and pets. Her eyes light up when she hears yesss goood dog! Perhaps she has generalized her known commands anyway. Next I am going to try and teach her a new thing and I will try using food reward. Actually, it is kind of necessary, when you are teaching something as important as Leave It!

Here is the method I am going to try. What do you all think? . Have a large HV treat in one hand and a smaller HV one in the other. When dog tries to get the large treat, close the hand and say Leave It. Only say this once. The pup will try to paw or lick the hand to get it from the closed hand. When she gives up, backs off and looks into your eyes say Yes! and reward from the other hand. Never reward from the larger treat hand. So dog learns Leave it means leave it and backing off is rewarded.

Candi, bribery in dog training occurs when satisfaction and gratification aren't enough for the dog and he will only comply when a treat is presented. As marker trainers, we teach the dog that everything is rewardable, but the dog learns to comply even when a reward is not offered for every behavior. The dog has an expectation of a reward, but the dog should not shut down or refuse to continue without a food reward.

 Quote: melissa bishop

Inga is 10 months old and she knows 25 commands.
We started when Inga was 6 weeks old with Don Sullivan's methods and equipment. The reward is praise and play, not becoming a Treat Dispenser.

This is in reply to Duane's post to me, Re: Bribery of Dogs -- Please see the OP's comment above, to which Christina S. and I responded...
Yes, I get the "semantical gargon" that is commonly used by trainers, no problem with it -- Bob and others have already addressed the Proper use of Treats & How to Wean off them & the Value of RANDOM Rewards of whatever kind in order to prevent "Treat Dependency" (funny that I don't recall any concern over "tug dependency", LOL) ... If a dog will NOT obey unless the handler has some toy or treat or tug on them while issuing any command, then that is NOT about being a "Treat Dispenser", but rather about a misunderstanding of Reward Based Training WITH Eventual introduction of Consequences for non-compliance, and how to AVOID ending up with a dog who Refuses to Work at will, IMHO.
All just my 2 cents worth as only a pet owner, of course, and not meant to start a debate with expert trainers, Duane