Two more cents...

I've found that the use of a crate is most appropriate for my purposes when it is used as a place where the dog wants to go and is comfortable in going in to. Not very elegantly put.

I use crates initially but unless a dog shows a need to find that cave a refuge from stuff, I generally live with the dogs. They find a spot or spots that satisfy their needs for a comforting place, and if it is a crate I make one available.

It seems to me, and I am hardly a voice to be listened to, that in some circumstances the assigning or directing a dog to a crate as an approach to remedying a behavior might be a counterproductive. I'm on thin ice here, probably.

I really do know what it is like to see a dog be truly afraid and reactive to loud simulations. And to feel as though my efforts are futile and making matters worse. Alas, there is no immediate or easy resolution. Time, patience, a confident temperament and outward demeanor, tolerance, and other stuff delivered positive results for me. Mostly it was acting as if there was no reason to be afraid, and not overly reacting to the dogs' anxiety.

I seen incapable of brevity. Mea culpa.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

.... I pretty much see resorting to crating him when there are gunfire sounds as counterproductive.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Two more cents...

I've found that the use of a crate is most appropriate for my purposes when it is used as a place where the dog wants to go and is comfortable in going in to. Not very elegantly put.

I use crates initially but unless a dog shows a need to find that cave a refuge from stuff, I generally live with the dogs. They find a spot or spots that satisfy their needs for a comforting place, and if it is a crate I make one available.

It seems to me, and I am hardly a voice to be listened to, that in some circumstances the assigning or directing a dog to a crate as an approach to remedying a behavior might be a counterproductive. I'm on thin ice here, probably.

I really do know what it is like to see a dog be truly afraid and reactive to loud simulations. And to feel as though my efforts are futile and making matters worse. Alas, there is no immediate or easy resolution. Time, patience, a confident temperament and outward demeanor, tolerance, and other stuff delivered positive results for me. Mostly it was acting as if there was no reason to be afraid, and not overly reacting to the dogs' anxiety.

I seem incapable of brevity. Mea culpa.

I'm glad Mike elaborated on this. My own one-sentence comment was rushed, and close to useless, and I couldn't get away from my work to expand on it until now.

I use crates, and I'm a big believer in crates. And I have had a couple of dogs who treated the crate as his/her refuge well into the senior years. And I'd definitely continue to provide access to the crate for such a dog.

But forced confinement can (and IMHO is likely to) really increase his fear/anxiety. That's what I meant about it being counterproductive.

It can even lead to injuries from the dog trying to escape.


This is about thunderstorms ( http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/6-tips-for-soothing-your-dogs-fear-of-thunder ) but has some helpful suggestions. Number three has some worthwhile suggestions, and number one is a good reminder, IMHO. (For me, when I have dealt with a terrified dog, the more reminders about my own demeanor, the better. It's hard.)

I will try to be cool as a cucumber, turn on the air conditioner ( for white noise ) , see if I can provide a food activity.
I'll suggest the crate, and cover it with a blanket, door open.
I tried commands and food rewards the night in question....the dog seemed unable to think...was totally non responsive.

Found this. Don't know if it will help.

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=17424

I recall reading in the past about dogs getting into the tub as a safe place. I think the thought behind it was because the iron tub interupts the electric pulse of thunder storms.

Sounds a bit crazy but maybe worth a try.

No idea at all about how it may work with gunfire.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Found this. Don't know if it will help.

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=17424

I recall reading in the past about dogs getting into the tub as a safe place. I think the thought behind it was because the iron tub interupts the electric pulse of thunder storms.

Sounds a bit crazy but maybe worth a try.

No idea at all about how it may work with gunfire.

Evidently, it's pretty common that dogs will get into the tub or shower enclosure, or behind the toilet, under the tank, during thunderstorms. I've read many times the suggestion that the dog may be seeking protection from static charges from these potential grounds. Of course, this wouldn't be relevant to the gunshot thing.

But I've also read the suggestion that the dog may be looking for the noise barrier provided by the tub's walls ... or perhaps provided by a windowless room, or an "inside" room (a room with no exterior-adjacent wall), sometimes true of bathrooms.

I imagine too that a bathroom could be viewed as more of a safe room than larger rooms with a lot of windows and doors and access to the outside.

We've had threads here about dogs who jumped into the tub during thunderstorms (and stayed in it for the duration).

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I will try to be cool as a cucumber, turn on the air conditioner ( for white noise ) , see if I can provide a food activity.
I'll suggest the crate, and cover it with a blanket, door open.
I tried commands and food rewards the night in question....the dog seemed unable to think...was totally non responsive.

Betty, do you think you might be able to acquire a gunshot tape or CD to use in desensitizing? I found this https://www.amazon.com/Company-Animals-Clix-Noises-Sounds/dp/B005LFOVWW and can look tomorrow for others (like one that's gunfire only -- this one is several sounds that affect dogs).

I like the white noise idea -- you have a window unit A/C? That sounds like a good white-noise-maker. The covered crate sounds like a good option for him to have, too ... particularly if it can be in a "safe" room (more below). These things sound like good things to have up your sleeve for the "time of" (an actual noise event).

But I'm also thinking that advance prep might be as important as your demeanor and actions at the "time of." That is, some desensitizing work done before noise events happen.

I saw this at healthypets.mercola.com ...

QUOTE: Make a "safe room." This is a place your dog can escape to when a storm is approaching, and it should be available to her at all times – especially when you're not home. The idea is to limit her exposure to as many aspects of thunderstorms as possible. The room would ideally have no windows, or covered windows so the storm can't be seen. If necessary, sound-proofing wallboard can muffle the noise of a storm. Put a solid-sided crate in the room with the door left open, along with a bit of food, water, treats, and toys.
As part of your dog's therapy, get her used to the room before she needs it by associating it with fun activities, food treats and gentle, soothing massage. END QUOTE

Obviously, some of this doesn't apply to the gunfire situation -- but some does, I think.

When doing desensitizing work, it needs to be generalized by using each room. But I'm thinking that maybe extra attention might be paid to a room in your house that you think might be an appropriate "safe room" -- maybe a room with few or no windows, or with storm windows and heavy coverings, and maybe with a source of white noise (I use a fan in my bedroom, just for the white noise), and with furniture and space for you (because many or most dogs in this situation want to be near their owner).


What do you think about a gunfire CD (above) for desensitizing work and counterconditioning using high-value food rewards (when I was working with Oliver on his dog-reactivity, I used actual warm bacon pieces, which I kept cooked pieces of in the freezer and microwaved as we needed it, and no-nitrite hot dogs cut up small ... of course this all depends on your dog's personal faves)?

Tomorrow I could look for better CDs, now that we know they do exist and can even be found at Amazon.

Obviously, I'm kind of throwing ideas out there, kind of scattershot, for consideration.

What Mike says about your demeanor and reactions, IMO, remains paramount.

But preparing in other ways for noise events resonates with me, too, having had desensitizing experience and success. For example, gradual desensitizing work, perhaps starting with the sound of gunfire at a level that does NOT make him unable to focus on you and games or ob work with HV rewards, will gradually help the situation you describe here: "I tried commands and food rewards the night in question....the dog seemed unable to think...was totally non responsive."

There's these, not entirely sure if I could have ever convinced any of my lot to wear them, but .....

http://www.mountedshootingsupplies.com/store/hearing-protection-for-dogs-moreinfo.html

The Boerboels had the cd's mentioned played to them everyday until they went to their new homes at 10 weeks, and I never had a minutes issues with fireworks, storms or gunfire.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I have long observed that a farm dog learns what we do with a gun and over years of observation
develops a phobia which is not irrational.

Last summer a cow broke her back and had to be shot to relieve her suffering. Pink was there, keeping the other cows who had gathered to provide support to the injured one, away...

OK, after just this much, I was already Sobbing So I will be of NO help, sorry -- But others here have offered some GOOD advice, which is why I Love This Board !!!

I was going to suggest the white noise, start low, add it in with silly games.
I have had gun shy, some don't get over it, it all depends on health and temperament. You learn up here real fast which dogs can put up with goose season and the far away propane bangs of the bird deterrents at the airport.
I tether, and at every bang, watch me, reward. Tether is for no escape. I allow cowering, or ducking, without a response. But I use steak fat, or breakfast sausage as a bang, oh, what's that, here! When I get a good response and eye contact.
How was the cow shoot? No stress shown at the time?
Here we have" you know what's "that think they can shoot in the less than km range from homes, so I start young, and quick . But we do get a few surprises, and scares. Once scared, we go white noise, than back to the reg gunshot.

Well, I do agree with most of your advices. I'm also convinced, that dogs should feel comfortable in their crate and be desensitized against such frightening noises in advance. I myself have no crates, but kennels and the dogs are so used to them, that they withdraw in them, when they want to be undisturbed. We intend to accustom them also to crates, in case we have to put them in the car. Although they enter the car with pleasure, I think it might be safer in some situations.

What concerns thunderstorms, gunshots etc I've heard about such tapes which desensitize them. We did it at first with normal music, increasing gradually the volume. Then a friend borrowed us some CDs with (in our ears) awful music with sounds like sudden gunshots, flagrant screaming,, ongoing thunderstorm etc.They are used to it now, but we have rarely thunderstorms here, but if, they can very heavy. Until now I haven't had the posibility to find out, how they'd react in reality. I'll try to get one or two of the tapes/CDs you recommended.

Two things, slightly off-topic:
1} Betty! How do you manage to stay cool as a cucumber???? Do you sit for a while in the fridge before?

2} Connie, no idea how well warm bacon pieces work, never tried any for my dogs. But make sure, that Bob is not around when you need them. They'd vanish in a flash even without thunderstorm. (Sorry, Bob, you wrote once, how much you love them.)