Great, helpful responses by you all.

I have had and trained dogs my entire (long now) life. I am not a novice to training but am to one in regards to protection sport. I have always used methods similar to Bob and Mike. They have served me well with high drive dogs (many Rotts, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Presa Canario).

I ask the question for my 9 week old pup bc Michael Ellis (whom I respect immensely) recommended against corrections for biting. The concern being that she may become hesititant to bite if corrected (with my last dog, i used “NO” and a fingernail to the bottom or roof of her mouth). If redirection continues to fail (perhaps I should say if I continue to fail with redirection), I may try mild corrections, a “no” at first. Along with her high bite/prey drive, RandD is very smart and bold. She is not easily spooked or dissuaded from what she wants. If it comes to it, I think she could handle the mild correction. I think (hope) she is smart enough to be able to distinguish between not biting me (or my clothing) and biting toys, tugs and eventually others in sleeves or suits.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

Great, helpful responses by you all.

I have had and trained dogs my entire (long now) life. I am not a novice to training but am to one in regards to protection sport. I have always used methods similar to Bob and Mike. They have served me well with high drive dogs (many Rotts, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Presa Canario).

I ask the question for my 9 week old pup bc Michael Ellis (whom I respect immensely) recommended against corrections for biting. The concern being that she may become hesititant to bite if corrected (with my last dog, i used “NO” and a fingernail to the bottom or roof of her mouth). If redirection continues to fail (perhaps I should say if I continue to fail with redirection), I may try mild corrections, a “no” at first. Along with her high bite/prey drive, RandD is very smart and bold. She is not easily spooked or dissuaded from what she wants. If it comes to it, I think she could handle the mild correction. I think (hope) she is smart enough to be able to distinguish between not biting me (or my clothing) and biting toys, tugs and eventually others in sleeves or suits.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

Hi Kelly,

Great post. I share your concern about corrections affecting later bite work. Your comments track Michael Ellis’s. He does, however, mention giving food as redirection in his Raising Your Puppy DVD. I question that particular means, which is why I posted the question.

I have tried to stop moving. It doesn’t quite work with RandD. She is a puller or tugger. She will jump up, clamp onto my shorts and pull back. She shakes and makes a game of it. I’m hoping as she ages, she will tire of it. I will try your suggestions. I think one place I went wrong is by not waiting until she let go a bit to introduce the toy or tug. She needs to think that her lettting go of me produces a better reward than do my shorts. That seems like a critical detail I overlooked.

Thank you so much for your insights and thoughts.

"IF" you use corrections be sure and start at a level that fits the dog. To much and the dog can shut down and to little and you get no response.

Only worked with one Rott, my daughters, one Presa, my brothers and no Ridgebacks.

Numerous terrier breeds, other breeds and mix breeds over the years and started with marker training about 16 yrs ago.

First time in 55-60 yrs I'm down to one old GSD.

I am forever thankful I connected with that, especially Ellis but I keep all I have learned in my "tool box" if needed.

It has been a while since I last watched Michaels video- my last pup now a year old- but the section that I remember Michael using food to redirect, he was using it to get the puppy’s attention away from distractions while on leash.... and then the food was a reward for focusing back on the handler.... I don’t recall ever seeing Michael use food for redirection for being mouthy.... I could be wrong and I just don’t remember - getting older sucks!

If you go to the On Demand section of this website, there are lots of free video clips of Michael that may be helpful.... http://leerburg.com/flix/category.php?categoryid=22. I know there is one on using aversives with puppies, and several other puppy related ones that you may want to check out as well.

Malinois are a breed that really want to please their handler - like most working line dogs. If you show her what is appropriate, she will pick it up quick. At this age, though, all they know is what they learned playing with their litter mates, which is all about biting and wrestling with each other.

I agree with Bob, though, if you are going to correct, make sure it’s in line with the pups personality. My female Mals have all been handler soft, so relatively light corrections were all they required. I really prefer not to correct pups - I look at it as it’s my job to show them what is appropriate, and if they don’t catch on, then I need to refine my communication to help the pup better understand what I am looking for.

Searching for better communication methods rather than relying heavily on corrections (especially with puppies) makes us better trainers, I think. Don’t get me wrong, there are times when you do need to correct, but being mouthy at 10 weeks isn’t really one of them, in my opinion anyway....

I usually remain a silent observer, but I found an interesting piece of information from a Michael Ellis video that YouTube so graciously recommend I view. Interesting for several reasons: first, it was about alpha rolls not our current topic. Second, it seems to (but really doesn't) contradict what Ellis teaches. It is, after all an Ellis lecture!

To the point..... At around 4:20 he begins talking about aversives, comparing leash correction to the "correction" of alpha rolls. But also brings in distractions which transitions to correcting his strong malinois puppy at 12 wks around 6:45. Michael does, as always, say it depends on the dog. The correction given, according to Michael, may have been damaging (relationship or drive) to 99% of other dogs. His basically shrugged it off.

Just a floating piece of information that I happened to catch and have now shared! I feel I need to add a disclaimer that Michael is a fabulous trainer, but it's your pup!

I was big on the Alpha roll when the Monks of New skeet promoted it way back when.

Still have the book.

I will say I'm not a fan of it any more and if an inexperienced handler tries it with a truly dominant dog it can be a disaster in the making.

I also agree about the leash corrections.

Again, I'm from the heavy handed days of dog training but ANY physical correction has to match the temperament of the dog AND the handler.

With marker training my thoughts are to train the behavior before physical corrections.

If the marker training is done correctly then the physical corrections will be needed less frequently if at all but that, again, depends on the dog and the skills of the trainer.

Yes, Ellis is top shelf!

Good morning and well written Bob,

I took in quite a few GSD rescues over the years, many of which were just happy to be in a nice environment without mean spirited human behavior. Those dogs would adapt very quickly to the boundaries of the house, and they were completely integrated with my mutts.

And then there were the rescue GSDs who were of higher drive and who had been either neglected, abused or both. Getting through to those dogs required both a soft and strong hand. I've been bitten enough times to consider the dog in the moment for the dog I want in the future. If a dog bites me, and I am not talking about a nip but rather a serious bite, I am disinclined to shrug it off and psychoanalyze the dog and its history. In the moment I correct.

My preference is to work with the dog absent any serious correction, and for the most part, it is successful. But I used to take in dogs who were candidates for the needle, and turn their undesirable behaviors to behaviors that would find them their forever homes. And I did.

No rescue dog I took in has ever fallen to the needle, and all found forever homes. And the three dogs here are rescues. And they are my pack. And one is a serious dog, and as it turns out, the most challenging I have had.

So, there are old school, new school and blended approaches to working with dogs. I've been lucky or unlucky enough to work through various approaches, and apply techniques from those. My preference is marker training. As is my preference to be the leader of the pack. As is it my preference to set goals and train to those goals. Persistence in the context of a plan works.

But at the end of the day, I want a dog to trust me and for me to be able to trust the dog. And that trust is based in no small measure in the dog not biting me or members of the family. I want a dog with vigor and zest and joy but I am the leader.

I've worked with dog owners who are of the I'm OK, you're OK approach to training, and it is a toss of the coin as to what is training who. And those same owners complain of behaviors that are easily trainable but who lack the ability to be consistent or exhibit a modicum of leadership in their approach to training. And that is not fair to the dog, and at the end of the day I advocate for the dog.

You train the dog today for the dog you want tomorrow. That mantra applies to any desired training outcome. Often the most glaring deficiency in training a dog is the human component.

Need more coffee.

I think there have been some great response to this post and the differences often show the success different folks have had with their dogs.

Unless the dog is being mistreated and there is consistency in their training it shows that MANY variations of training.

I do believe that most all of us here have the skills and dog sense to adjust whatever training method we use to get the response out of the differences in individual dog.

One thing I would like to clarify is my finger in the throat method to stop puppy biting.

I don't just shove my finger in the mouth cause I ain't as dumb as I look.

What I do is put my finger down the side of the pups mouth and go BEHIND the back molars. That keeps the finger on my hand.

 Quote: Eric Sacks

Thoughts on redirecting biting (clothing, legs, hands) with food? Or perhaps, when the pup chomps down on the leg of my shorts, commencing a marker training session?

My concern is, I don’t want her to think that through biting, she is causing a food reward to appear.

Bite redirection done wrong can easily make things worse!
How old is the puppy?