All compulsion training has to have a high reward to go with it.Praise and food. Bottom line is the dog can not get stressed or the training goes down hill. If your trainer is using corrections and doesnt want to use treats to go with it then Id say they dont understand compulsion and are very one dimensional. This dog is 8 months old and could handle a balanced aproach to training involving corrections and rewards. That doesnt mean you have the right trainer though. Corrections are relative as to what your dog percieves as being a correction. Balance and reading your dog is where a good trainer would come in helpful. Lee is right about using activities as rewards too. Ive taught plenty of dogs to down when the reward was getting to go through the door.

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Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
This is not a correct way of looking at herding work or the reward that drives a dog to herd.

I never said it was. I understand that herding dogs are bred with drives and instincts to herd. Praise (physical and/or verbal) and access to livestock to work are the only rewards the herding dog handler directly dishes out. He doesn't use food or toy rewards. The dog does receive drive satisfication from the act of working the livestock, and indeed this is powerful. I think we agree on this (??).

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A dog's pack drive is absolutely positively NOT the primary reward the dogs gets while herding, and certainly not in the hard core herding dogs and their bloodlines.

Depends on the dog. Join the Herders-L list and make that statement. You might be surprised by the responses. Many herding experts say that some herding dogs (including most dogs in some of the herding breeds) are motivated to herd primarly through pack drive to control the livestock, whom they view as subordinate pack members. Not prey drive.

Furthermore, if you read what those who work herding dogs on livestock say about "genetic obedience"... you'll understand that prey drive alone won't cut the mustard. Here's what Ellen Nickelsberg said on her website:
"There are two drives the German shepherd herding dog must have not only to succeed in practical, everyday sheep herding work, but also to excel in HGH herding competitions which demand independent performance. They are (1) "total attraction to the sheep"; and (2) "genetic obedience".... a strong willingness to please the shepherd and to accept the shepherd as the leader.... "Genetic obedience" is the breaking and steering mechanism the experienced shepherd uses to "direct" the high drive and natural behaviors the dog brings to herding out of the prey instinct. A dog with "genetic obedience" only needs to be shown by the shepherd what the job is to be done and, once he understands, does the task willingly, reliably and, above all, independently - this is "education". A dog with this drive not only wants to work, but it wants to work in cooperation with the shepherd. Trainers with a "master/slave" mentality toward the dog are an affront to the genetic make up of this kind of dog. On the other hand, a dog lacking in "genetic obedience" needs to be commanded by the shepherd and often, in the beginning, compelled to obediently perform the same tasks whether it wants to, or not - this is "training". Both of these dogs will be able to herd sheep, but there will be a significant difference in performance between them. For example, the dog with "genetic obedience" whose instincts are "directed" will learn to work reliably and independently in cooperation with the shepherd; while the dog lacking in "genetic obedience" which is trained to obey will learn to remain reliant on commands from the shepherd."

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The tool to train obedience in the dogs isn't pack drive either, it is still desire to engage in the herding behavior.

See the comments from Ellen Nickelsberg, above, about "genetic obedience".

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Bottom line. . .you still need to work in your dog's currency, what is most valuable to the dog.

No argument on that point. :-)

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For herding dogs that is the prey drive reward of actually herding. Most other dogs, especially young dogs the reward is usually FOOD. . not praise. Never has been. . .

Most working breeds were developed to do practical work like herding, hunting game, vermin killing, guarding. Food rewards were not historically a significant part of this. Don't confuse modern dog training methods with what has been historically the norm.

Laura

Laura wrote: "Many herding experts say that some herding dogs (including most dogs in some of the herding breeds) are motivated to herd primarly through pack drive to control the livestock, whom they view as subordinate pack members. Not prey drive."

VC- And they would be wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Mail me the list info to join and I'll post it there as well.

Ellen's quotes show that we agree perfectly. First in the list of importance is "intense attraction to sheep". Second is "genetic obedience". I have not said anything different.

Laura wrote: "Most working breeds were developed to do practical work like herding, hunting game, vermin killing, guarding. Food rewards were not historically a significant part of this. Don't confuse modern dog training methods with what has been historically the norm."

Nope, not food rewards. . .but in every single one of those types of work there is a reward that the dog considers a primary reward. . .and not one of those is praise.

Praise is a secondary reward, period. . .I don't think there are very many dogs where praise is a primary reward. . .and that certainly doesn't change in history.

And if we want to talk about history, then we are talking about another motivator. . .fear. That is, without question, how most of dogs have been trained throughout history. . .then the praise to show them when they weren't going to get hurt again. In that case praise is pretty important. . .still isn't a primary reward for the dogs, it is the fear.

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:

We don't have to, because the dog is being rewarded by the behavior. Complex prey drive reward. . . Well said and right. The hunt/herding is the reward. Dogs like to chase and control as a whole. Even dogs who dont seem to show any chase behaviors can be taught to like chasing things in time.

On one of our walks today we met a man with a little bulldog/terrior type. My dog, as usual, acted as if she wanted to kill them both. Thank god she had her prong on. So, on a scale from 1 to 10 I gave her a correction level of about 23. She yelped, and I gave her a stern NO. I'm sure she thought her head was going to come clean off. I'll tell you what..she thought twice about that cat we saw about 3 blocks later.
I think the way we'll go is a combination of treats and praise. Later on our walk I had her do a sit/stay. Then a platz after awhile. She nailed it. I praised the heck out of her and gave her some apple. She loved it.

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Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
Laura wrote: "Many herding experts say that some herding dogs (including most dogs in some of the herding breeds) are motivated to herd primarly through pack drive to control the livestock, whom they view as subordinate pack members. Not prey drive."

VC- And they would be wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Mail me the list info to join and I'll post it there as well.

I gotta think that folks who've been breeding and working herding dogs for generations in their families are likely to know something about what they are talking about. How would you know if you haven't seen or experienced what they have? The English shepherd breed is (in most ES) one that is primarily motivated to herd through pack drive dominance... "bossiness"... not prey drive. Do a google search for English shepherd. There are two email lists. Fire away! Also, you can join the Herders-L list and look up in the archives the thread entitled "What makes a herding dog tick?" and you'll see this pack drive dominance/control issue discussed there too.

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Ellen's quotes show that we agree perfectly. First in the list of importance is "intense attraction to sheep". Second is "genetic obedience". I have not said anything different.

Ellen didn't say anything about "genetic obedience" being of secondary importance or a "secondary reward". That's your spin.

Some more of what Ellen Nickelsberg wrote on her website about herding GSDs:

"Now, after this dog had a few minutes to catch her breath, the shepherd sent her to the boundary again. This time he kept constantly talking to her in a low, slow, calm, soothing voice -- quietly directing her and encouraging her as she moved along the boundary: "Brava/good"; "Furche/onto the furrow, brava"; "Das ist so brav"; "Langsam/slowly, brava". Watching the shepherd work the dog was spellbinding. This dog, the frantic worker just five minutes ago, was suddenly working calmly and smoothly. The tone of the scene shifted from cacophony to harmony in the blink of an eye. The shepherd directed the dog's every move with the singsong tones of his voice. He never gave her a chance to make a mistake -- if she started to come off the boundary, he would softly and calmly remind her to stay on it. The shepherd never used the word "Pfui/bad" even if the dog did something wrong. Instead of a verbal correction or negative tone of voice, he would quietly coax her back into the right position or behavior and then PRAISE - always PRAISE."

"I was watching the shepherd "educate" the dog. The shepherd was channeling her drive and energy into purposeful work to serve his sheep herding needs. The shepherd's encouraging, calming, directing voice kept him in constant contact with the dog -- he never gave her the opportunity to fall into a pattern of errors in performance. If she came off the boundary, he would immediately encourage her back onto it and PRAISE. If the dog did not immediately understand what the shepherd was directing her to do, he calmly and quietly repeated the commands giving her all the time she needed to figure it out for herself. This was education. What I was watching was a dog learning for herself what she is expected to do -- with no stress imposed by compulsion training and no risk of the shepherd setting a pattern of avoidance behavior due to misunderstood negative physical or verbal corrections. The result of this education will be a dog that will be able to work on her own with confidence to the limits of her instincts."

Not with food rewards.
Not with toy rewards.
Not with compulsion.
With PRAISE.

Laura

Laura,
It sounds to me like this genetic obedience you are referring to as a desirable trait in the herding lines is almost in opposition to the trait of handler hardness which is often selected for in lines breed largely for some type of protection/bite work. I say that realizing that herding lines can be very aggressive with sheep when necessary.

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Originally posted by Chip Blasiole:
Laura,
It sounds to me like this genetic obedience you are referring to as a desirable trait in the herding lines is almost in opposition to the trait of handler hardness which is often selected for in lines breed largely for some type of protection/bite work.

I've wondered about that too Chip. I wonder if folks confuse toughness with handler hardness? Ed has an article on his website where he discusses the difference between these things. Ed refers to a tough police dog, with many bites on the street, who is handler soft.

Incidentally, the GSD herding lines that Ellen Nickelsberg uses came from Manfred Heyne's line of champion HGH dogs. Unlike many shepherds in Germany, Herr Heyne also titled his working HGH dogs in Schutzhund. As he said, the GSD should be a well rounded working dog. Read the story about how Manfred Heyne's herding dog Nikko (sire of Ellen's Nicky) flattened the helper to the ground the first time Nikko did a SchH courage test. It's in the Leerburg article "Discussion with Manfred Heyne."

Laura

I'm not a trainer but I think you mean you will use treats, praise and fear.
Originally posted by Janet Marshall:
On one of our walks today we met a man with a little bulldog/terrior type. My dog, as usual, acted as if she wanted to kill them both. Thank god she had her prong on. So, on a scale from 1 to 10 I gave her a correction level of about 23. She yelped, and I gave her a stern NO. I'm sure she thought her head was going to come clean off. I'll tell you what..she thought twice about that cat we saw about 3 blocks later.
I think the way we'll go is a combination of treats and praise. Later on our walk I had her do a sit/stay. Then a platz after awhile. She nailed it. I praised the heck out of her and gave her some apple. She loved it.

If needs be. A lot depends on the situation. After that incident today, we saw other dogs and cats. Her ears perked up, but she didn't utter a sound. She got plenty of praise after each "non-incident". Indeed, one strong correction is worth a thousand nagging ones.
I am obviously not a trainer either, but doesn't it make sense to do whatever works for you and your dog? Is there a right way or a wrong way? I'm not looking to make her a world champion anything. Just a well behaved obedient companion.