Originally posted by Robert VanCamp:
I don't know how valid the argument is for the GSD needing to guard the flock from predation. Human theives and hooligans there is ample proof of, predators there really isn't. . .other than a few stray dogs. Back in college I had a Prof. that had a problem with his Angora Goats being coyote bait. This was back when the herd guarding experiments just started and really the breeeds we've heard about that make up the nomadic herders contingent in some European countries were unknown.
He had a Bouvier but she was really a people dog that hung about the house. Not much use down by the animals.
He liked the big robust airedales that could be found, somewhat game dogs that liked to fight if unchecked. He got a youngster and walked along the fenceline over and over, basically encouraging him to mark.
It grew up to be a fierce coyote assasin, and even an occasional bobcat fight or two under its belt and drove the feral dogs out of the area as well.
He could care less about the animals on the place w/ a bit of trainng. But he was quite territorial towards other predators.
In fact it was this Prof. that sparked my interest in the PP dogs and working dogs in general beyond the sporting breeds. His Bouv did a fine job keeping the human predators out of his hay barn and away from the home but pretty useless with the animal predators. The role was reversed with the big ugly airedale he had that was nothin but a friendly hound to strangers of the human persuasion.
During this time frame I also got the oportunity to attend a lecture and guestion answer session by Prof. Coppinger about herd guarding dogs.
Very interesting point of view.

For those interested in the reality of herd guard dogs the definitive works are out there by Coppinger and other studies are by Green.

The fantasy that these dogs are sooooo powerful that they shouldn't be trained and that they are wolf killers is nuts.
The smaller asian wolves are not willing to take the chance of an encounter with these dogs. They still have to go out and make aliving.
If a dog encounters a family unit or pack they are quite in a trouble.
Fights among the two are apperantly quite rare.
Self-defense comes into play, an undesireable characteristic in a PP or PSD. So does guard (some people would call this in todays world territiorializm but it really isn't, it often manifests itself as barrier aggrssion) that is also not very desireable in a PSD.
I grew up with Pyrenees and have seen them and other herd guarding breeds working in Northern New Mexico where some of the first experiments were done noted in Greene's works.
I think I can read their behaviors pretty well.
They are not prey driven, they don't have a ton of fighting instinct, and they are not too game.
But, see them in the back country and like most dogs they react strongly to unique situation, and novelty, which is predators and people. They will approach and bark. being damned good sized dogs they pretty much resolve any dispute.
Usually worked in pairs or more the dogs act in pack fashion and stick together when confronted. Imagine 2 or three 100# plus dogs. The decision the predator makes is pretty simple...try later or try something else.
They are very interesting to watch.
A couple of years ago while on a fishing trip I stopped in the back country of northern New mexico to watch a shepherd moving his flock from horseback. Among the flock were several dogs of herd guarding type. Large healthy dogs that were quite aware of their surroundings and came to challenge the truck I was in. Undoubtedly self-defense. I do believe that I could have stepped out of the truck and drove them back in fear. I wouldn't turn my back on one for a second though let alone several.
I hope that this provides a picture of the dogs that isn't shaped by myth.
Don't take this as an insult to the dogs. They are what they are, not what legend has them to be.
Had I been a dog I think there would have been the typical dog fight that occurs between feral dogs. Short if at all with very little injuries if any at all. Driving the outsiders away as a pack. Not a hunt. That is for different creatures than the herd guard dog.

Thomas, you make a very interesting point about talk of drives being GSD language. Thanks very much for that; it's important.

Kevin: a late nineteenth-early twentieth century lawman/gunman named Billy Martin (known to my father as "Uncle Billy") had a dog, reportedly an airedale, which also had at least one very memorable fight with a bobcat. Uncle Billy had put the dog in a cage with the cat. The love of kindness did not abide in him.

Billy Martin, by the way, is said to have started his career as a lawman in Colorado at fifteen.

Having read the Coppinger book, which I thought was fasinating, I recall something about the livestock gard dogs bark is enough to break the preditors cycle of stalk, chase, kill, etc. My buddies neighbor has a big, bad Dalmation that tried to take on a pair of coyotes. The Dal came home minus his nuts, scrotum and all . Now he really hates the coyotes but runs to the porch and raises hell from there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

Not every livestock guarding breed is the same. I think Maremmas and Pyranees for example have been watered down quite a bit because of the show ring. Just watching them in the show ring and it's the same with GSD's, pretty and fluffy dogs that look nothing like their working ancestor.
In Italy there are several different types of guardian dogs all white but there is some variation in size. The Maremmma show variety is from the smaller stock, these dogs can and still do work but to some people they are really show dogs. The larger variety in the Mountains is up to 32inch at the shoulders and these dogs are purely working dogs. I know there is a Maremma breeder in the US that has these larger dogs purely for work.

The Great Pyranees I don't think are the best livestock guardian dogs. Some blooodlines are purely show dogs. The white livestock guardian breeds tend to do more posturing and barking whilst defending the flock. I know with Anatolian shepherds, they are more bolder. In Turkey where these dogs originate, they are specifically bred to have the speed and size to chase down a wolf, which they do.

I think there is a bit of myth surrounding these dogs but with stories like Flintis's I can see why they become the stuff of legends. He was a anatolians shepherd who defended his flock in Nambia from some aggressive baboons <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Most Baboon attacks result in death of the dog, Flintis was lucky his owner came quickly. But this dog wouldn't give up defending his flock and nearly died for it. I don't know how he could just have been defending himself, cos he could of just ran away but no he stood his ground. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You always have to question things like that baboon story when there are other forces at play.
They had a reason to push the value of the dog so that people would use them to guard the flocks in the hopes that the herders would stop shooting cheetahs. So take it with a grain of salt. Parts of it sound a little fishy, like the dog having a running battle with the baboon over a few miles range. That seems a bit out of character for a flock dog, you would think a high quality guard dog would return to the flock instead of pursuing a fight. But who knows for sure, you just have to be careful with those kinds of stories and drawing conclusions from them, especially in this case where the story is already being retold as 3rd or 4th hand information.

That said the world is full of great dog stories. The best one I personally know of, involves a distinguished older British doctor, who as a young man was stationed in Africa as police/solider sergeant.
(I will make the story very short). He goes out with his men (locals) to kill an elephant that had been killing villagers (villagers already killed 2 of the 3 elephants). As they hop in the jeep his neighbors’ ridgeback jumps in with them. They find the elephant and the guy decides to take a difficult head shot across terrain. He makes the hit and the elephant drops ( .303 British). He traverses the terrain and approaches the "dead" elephant. As he draws close the bull raises up. He thinks that he is about to be killed, at that instant the ridgeback flies past him and attacks the elephant’s trunk. That gives the Sergeant enough time kill the elephant. Needless to say the man is still devoted to ridgebacks. So what drives are at play here? its not his dog and the dog was not his "buddy" either, yet the dog attacks to save his life.

The dog was game, and being a hunting type dog. . .he didn't do anything out of the ordinary. Animal is down and weak, great time to take a shot at him as he goes to get up. Prey Drive

I've hunted with several game hound and catch breeds. Black Mouth Curs being my personal favorite, but also with APBTs and other hounds. I take a guided trip to hunt wild hog just about every year now.


I'll mention it again, the Black Mouth Cur is just about the most impressive hunting animal I've ever seen. Probably one of the best hunting dogs in the world.

What does one of those dogs look like, V.C.? Where did they originate? Just curious.........Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What do they look like? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There is this search engine I use from time to time. It can be found at http://www.google.com, and the funny thing is you can find a photo of just about anything on the planet by doing a search there.

But, for the sake of the curious board members. . .they look like yellow labs with black masks. . .on crack. LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Black Mouth Cur

In my country (Croatia) there is goverment program in which shepherds are given tornjak (croatian mountain dog) puppies for protecting flock from wolves (which are problem, during the war their number rose). So shepherds are given pups, which are then placed in flock, not kept with humans. And although they look like teddy bears they can kill a wolf. Only problem is they are gaining popularity with show folk...

http://www.life-vuk.hr/tornjak1.jpg

Other cool flock guardian breed i know of is sarplaninac (illyrian sheepdog, yugoslavian mountain dog). Now those are nasty bastards. Used by military as border dogs.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/goranin/JuszufBoni.jpg

Now you know. If i see those dogs in 10 years looking as american showline shepherd i am going to shoot someone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Really.