It's superstitious behavior, much like the collar before beginning a drug search used to be centuries ago. The reward is in training, when training is conducted properly and the dog gets to find the subject and given the occasional bite. The reward which drives the behavior is not all the barking and carrying on prior to entering a building. That is a good technique on some dogs in the beginning stages of training, but as the dog progresses it's just not needed.

DFrost

David,

I guess Im still using some archaic methods. I dont work my dog "naked" like a lot of handlers do. I still use the collar for bomb searches and the tracking harness for tracking. Area searches and straight apprehension work on the street is done on the dead ring though. Yes, pumping up the dog for searches early in the training is a good technique for getting them thinking right. I guess its time to get with the modern way of working the dog.

I agree with David. A dog with drive doesn't have to be pumped up to do a great job. A loud noisy dog doesn't have any more drive than a quiet one. It's all in what you allow.
Yes you can see the dogs eagerness for the work when they are hyped up, but it really is no comparison of drive. Drive is inside.
I'm sure you know this.

I should keep my mouth shut beings that I'm not a K9 handler or trainer, but I think there is something to be said for getting pumped up before tackling a problem.

You raise the endorphines and the adrenaline and you frustrate the dog.


A quiet dog is a capped dog and I think for anyone that has taken a bite from a dog from a controlled sit and from the same dog when straining at the end of a lead going nutzo can see a bit of difference in the intensity. Maybe that's just me though?


That's just a personal observation. I'm sure that a dog with nice drives and the right training can do either, but I'm thinking Howard is right.

The same reason you hype up the youth in training, would be the same reason you hype up the adult in work.


But what do I know?

Following the advice of some more experienced trainers we adopted the practice of putting our dogs in the down position while making the announcements in a building. While it has curbed most of the barking there is some vocalization. If placing the dog in a down causes the drive to do the task to go down I think that you have to read it and take the necessary steps to pump the dog back up. Each dog is different. Personally, I like to see the dog that is quivering, and whining in anticipation of getting to charge into the building and get the bad guy.

Howard we all have superstitious behaviors, cause it's the way we were taught. I don't even mean there is anything wrong with it. But honestly, would your dog do a drug search without the collar. Do you even have to tell the dog to "find it" or whatever before they start working. With a building search, just because the dog is in the sit position, waiting for the command, usually trembling, leaning forward and ready to go, does not mean the behavior is capped, it's controlled. Of course I'm talking about a trained, working dog, not one that is in training. When we conduct controlled aggression exercises the dog is not permitted to be jumping around. He's in the sit stay and knows he's going to get a bite or at least the chance of one.

DFrost

I think it depends on the individual dog . Most I feel don't need to be pumped up to search and I feel it is actually counter productive to do this with most K9's that have the proper drives.

We used to train building searches while pumping most of the dogs up and letting them bark . This was several years ago when we used to work primarily with donated dogs some of which needed this (not all though) .

My first K9 (very high drive) was trained that way and I operated with him like that for a few years until I finally started listening to my trainers who told me I should be calming him down. What I found was that my K9 actually started finding people faster because his searching was calmer and more deliberate.

When I used to pump him up prior to searching he would charge into the room looking for a fight and would eventually start using his nose . This left the first part of the room he started in virtually unsearched . I could train having the decoy hidden at the start of the search or having a decoy right around the corner of the door at the start of the search but it made very little improvement. Also when he did get into odor he would run in and out of it because he was working so fast .

After retraining my dog to be quiet and calmer before the search I found that he began searching (with his nose) sooner and would search more deliberately . He would find people much faster because of this. I will say his searching didn't look as intense because he wasn't running around looking for a fight but he actually found people faster.

We now train using imported K9's with very good drives and we found out quickly that pumping the majority of these dogs up and letting them bark is actually counter productive because they were already pumped up enough on there own . We've seen a marked improvement in their building searches if they were kept quiet before the search , some search even better if we calm them down a bit also prior to searching .

I can see where it could be very easy to try to retrain a K9 that has previously been trained to bark and was pumped up before the search , to use strong corrections or compulsion . I would advise against that . There are ways to retrain a K9 like this using it's own drives to do this .

VanCamp ,
Most of the time when I see a K9 pumped up before a search I see a K9 that is pumped up for the fight with the badguy he's going to find and that's great if that's all the K9 is expected to do but it's not . There are more expectations on the dog for a building search . We may need to direct him to search a certain area of the building or check a closed door , recall him , etc..With a K9 that's all lathered up for the fight this is more difficult to get them to do these things and the searching is usually too fast and not as detailed.

The training taken in having the K9 quiet and I'll add focussed before a building search is much like Flink's training for building Grip , Drive and Focus . Instead of using a ball on a string as the drive builder we are using the decoy . The dog is expected to remain calm and focussed , very much in drive and to follow the commands of his handler as well as use it's nose. He learns he has to do these things in order satisfy his drive (find the badguy).

Jim,

My partner, IMO works better,longer and with more intensity when prepped for the work. More times than I can count Ive had to conduct a building search after a burglary then perform a track, area search or apprehension immediately thereafter. My partner is intense during the entire incident knowing that any second he may find the bad guy. He is pumped from the beginning and ready to fight at the end. There is no doubt in anyones mind that he is actively agressively looking for the bad guy with bad intentions in mind. When the bad guy is found, there is no mealy-mouthed apprehension involved. It is a full bore confrontation. This is what I am talking about. You dont send a prize fighter to a musical before getting into the ring.

I have seen other working dogs complete the building search and only half ass look for a track or any bad guy odor after being forced to be quiet on the warning. I am not saying either method is better than the other...my main concern was does this affect the dogs' intensity. Obviously there are some dogs out there who could give a rip if they have to be quiet(read Mals) but overall I see a negative affect.

Howard

Howard ,

I was originally going to reply encouraging you to give it a little more time and see if your K9's aren't in fact finding the badguy faster just doing it in a more methodical way . But if you are actually seeing a drop in drive like you say on real deployments then the cop in me says screw it stick with what you got and have been successful with.

The only other thing I can say is my experiance with keeping the K9 quiet has been very differant than yours. None of our Handlers have ever reported a decline in how their K9 apprehends the badguy or the dog's stamina to work . The dogs are still getting keyed up when they hear us give a K9 warning they are just required to be quiet and in my experiance able to stay more focussed on the task at hand because of it .

They also aren't being forced to be quiet . They are being quiet because they have learned that being quiet while the K9 warning is given will allow them to fulfill their drive to be released to go find the badguy .

Your analogy about the prize fighter is correct and I don't think we are too far apart on how we want to see our dog's perform. I'll use one of my own to better descibe where I'm coming from .

" You don't want to send hockey players to see the movie SLAP SHOT before a game because before you know it they're "putting on the foil" instead of playing the game " (True story by the way and I will admit it was a fun game.)