Thanks everyone for all of the info. I tend to agree with the thought that he had a defensive reaction at training, and it transferred over to prey play. I have always played with him using a "raspy" voice with no reaction from the dog, so the only thing that makes sense to me is that it was just too much at one time in training. The helper on that day was not the usual helper/TD, but another person at the club that frequently does helper work with the older dogs.
My next concern is where do we back the bite work up to at this point? Do we still attempt sleave bites next training session, or go back to the tug or rag?
A separate issue altogether is discussing this with the TD. I am a new member to the club and the sport, and I am concerned that my comments may not carry the weight as that of an experienced handler.
Again, you guys have been great and have shown a lot of patience with my questions. I am just EXTREMELY concerned, and do not want ruin what I believe to be a very good dog.

Ellen:

BRAVO! You really impress me with your understanding of this thing we call training.

Glock:

Genetics genetics genetics. Yes a puppy is a very fragile animal. But if your dog has the right genes. You would need a pro to work this dog in a way that it would never bounce back. It's the dogs that never were meant to be titled that don't bounce back.

Dave:

The book is training the competition working dog. Ed sells it. It is the first book I ever read on the subject of SchH. It is outdated a little but will be a must read for all for many generations.

Just a little update. I played a little with the ball today, first time since my initial post, and he seems back to his old self. He was especially full of fun today. He jumped up and grabbed my collar to try to get to the ball as I held it in the air, so I think he'll be OK. I am still going to have the helper take it easy on Sunday. Thanks to everyone for the help, I learned a lot through this thread.

In respone to this last post, I understand this pup jumped up because you were encouraging him to do so. But if you weren't and the pup was just crazy to get the ball and was jumping all over you, should the pup be corrected or do you not want to risk diminishing the pup's prey/ball drive???

Great question Paul. The answer is maybe. Depends on the dog. I have been reprimanded highly by 3 top trainers on letting my Otis pups hang from my arm. They said that Otis is not the breeding for this. While I have seen them do the same one commented that do as I say and not as I do. Like a child if you tell me not to do something I want to do it twice as much. LOL.

Hmmm. OK Vince, thanks for clearing that up! LOL! I sort of have an idea of what you're saying, it depends on the dog. I think I can relate, I think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Vince,
Does the arm thing count when you have a 3 month old that from the time I got him at ten weeks old will bite down (firm but not too hard) and then look at me as if to say "Okay Mom, now what??" !! He has done this from the time I got him...it is so funny..he goes only for the left arm in the typical SchH grip...his doesn't chew or reset his grip...just holds. He will readjust with tugs and towels at this point but not the arm. I don't want him nipping at other people and it is not really that with me...he just seems to know what to do..this is with or without a long sleeve shirt...he will grab bare arm just as quickly!!

Is this something to correct if we aren't sure just how far we plan to try and take him through training?

I've got a similar situation with my pup (approaching 16 weeks), Pets4me. She inevitably decides at some point in a play/short hangout session that she wants to fight. She comes hard at me and takes as big a bite as she can from any body part (accept the face). She sounds very serious (growling) and I cannot distract her with toys while she's in this mode. She will regrip/counter for a bigger bite... ouch those puppy teeth hurt!!

The only thing I can do to distract her - besides putting her in her crate - is to whisper her name. If I do this, she stops, licks my face (as if to say "we're just having fun, right?") and then wants to fight again in a short time. She has been doing this since I got her at 7.5 weeks and I haven't discouraged/corrected it for fear of reducing her high prey drive. I do not think I'm doing anything to pressure her into defense drive?... I have always let her win.

Has anyone seen this behavior in their GSD's? I don't know if this is breed related? My pup is a German working bloodline Boxer.

If this is not unusual, when should I start discouraging the behavior. Her grip is getting much stronger... or my skin is getting much softer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The way mine is different is that he is not growling or acting aggressive at all. He will just calmly take the arm in his mouth...but yes his bite is getting firmer. He is very easily distractable from this..it just seems to be a form of playing. He does not growl during tug play or any other kind for that matter. Seems like someone told me that if he was growling alot that could be a problem...actually they told me that with my first working GSD...he NEVER growled while playing with me or with his toys. Very little when he and the other dogs would play. Can someone who has trained more if this is true...is a lot of growling good or bad...or does it really matter??

Thanks so much

Jerri,
Growling is never a good thing. Pups will growl at each other a bit when they play, but as to dog/human interactions, it's bad news. Judges do not want to hear growling while the dog is on the sleeve, it's a signal of insecurity.
You may want to read *Elements of Temperament: Drives, Nerves, Thresholds* for more on that.