WHat I do takes patience, but it works. When you are finished playing tug with the ball, give the out command and just stand still. He will continue to tug, just hold your arm as still as possible. Puppies have short attention spans, and if it isn't moving it isn't any fun. When he lets go tell him good out and start the motion as quickly as possible. YOu want to reward him for letting go. Only give the command ONCE. Then wait. The older he is the longer before he will release. If he won't release pull the ball up to the point where his front feet are off the ground and then wait until he releases. Then immediatly start the game again. To prevent the dog from anticipating the out I do this. Play tug for a short period of time then freeze, but don't give the out command, then restart the tug game. If he loosens the grip pull the ball away, and keep it away for a few seconds. Then repeat. For many of the first few times even if he loosens up a bit let him keep it so he understands what you want. You want to get to a point that the dog doesn't release the grip until it is commanded and releases instantly when commanded.

When you aren't going to out, I bring them "in to my arms" and calm the dog down. Again sooner or later the dog gets bored just holding the ball when he drops it grab quickly and start the game over. I also run the dog in a circle prior to the in the arms. I want them to maintain the hold while moving.

I'll give that a try. Thanks

I'll keep you posted.

Michael, if you are still trying to build drive, it's not yet time to teach the OUT. The OUT is the very last step. Remember, he has to learn the grip and focus work before learning the out command(consistently showing full hard grips time after time). He has to learn to run with the ball while maintaining a full-mouth grip, without prematurely dropping or chewing it, and be comfortable coming into the arms.

And at this point, being only 7 months old, let him just enjoy the game. He's young and you've got plently of time. Go slowly and cover all the steps.

When it IS time to teach the out, I would recommend doing it like in the Flinks video: pinching the flank, using a prong collar(or an e-collar). The way Richard described it is very different and time consuming. This method, I believe, can promote mouthy grips and premature outs. You definately don't want your hard work running in circles. With Flink's method, on the other hand, your work can be done fast and accurate. Watch the video again, he teaches the dogs that they must OUT AND STAY OUT. This is one of the phases of training that I believe must be done forcefully if it's to be done correctly. That doesn't mean it has to be harsh, but it has to mean something to your dog. When you tell him "OUT", without any nit-picking, he'll know what to do.

But at this point, I would be working on the other phases; drive, focus, and grip. To have gone through all the steps with a pup this young is going a little too fast. He must be showing a full, firm grip consistently before moving on to the out.

I agree with Mike, while the way Richard describes doing the out may work, it pretty much goes against everything you are trying to instill in the dog if you are following Bernhards method.

You don't want your dog or puppy worrying about having the feet lifted off the ground or losing interest in holding the ball. we want the dog to hold calmly and firmly while moving and while standing still, thus avoiding the "situational out"

I have had none of the problems mentioned. By the time I took the dog to the help the out was taught and I have never had to even give a correction to get the dog to out. Nor have I hade a mouthy grip or a premature out. The big key comes from not always giving the out command and going back to tugging. The result is the dog doesn't let go with out the command. The other thing I forgot is that if the dog does release prematurely AFTER it knows what is required, I put the ball away and we go again later.

I HATE flanking dogs. I have seen too many people bit by there own dogs from not doing it properly, and too many dogs that are sensitve about there hind ends from flanking. I have also seen dogs out prematurely when some one gets to close to their rear after they have been flanked. Some will even try and snap if someone gets too close to their rear.

It may take a little more time, but I think it is worth it. I get a much cleaner out by not flanking than many people get by doing it poorly.

I'm totally behind Richard on the out - both that it is time to teach it and how to teach it. The arguments against doing it by waiting for the behavior to be offered and then positively rewarding it are groundless. The LAST thing it would tend to produce is a dog who mouths or anticipates because there is no reason for it to be in conflict. There is no pain, no aversive associated with the out. Flanking, ecollars and prong collars, on the other hand, DO cause the dog to be thinking prematurely about how to avoid that pain, thus sometimes causing conflict and chewing or early outs.

i think the point is that the topic is related to the Flinks videos. I have raised my newest dog by the "book" so to speak... I used to do it like Richard outlined..more or less.

I used the ecollar (i don't know many people that can flank correctly, me included) when my dog was about 9 months old after doing everyhting as outlined in Bernhard's method from 8 weeks old. Guess what? it worked perfectly and I have a calm full grip on toys and the sleeve and the dog does not worry about pain. If done properly it's not painful!! It should not have to be done repeatedly and should hold more of the 'startle' factor.

If you guys want to talk about other ways to teach the out, start a new thread. This thread is related to the Flinks videos.

Originally posted by Cindy Easton Rhodes:
i think the point is that the topic is related to the Flinks videos.

I used the ecollar (i don't know many people that can flank correctly, me included) when my dog was about 9 months old after doing everyhting as outlined in Bernhard's method from 8 weeks old.

If you guys want to talk about other ways to teach the out, start a new thread. This thread is related to the Flinks videos. I didn't realize that the video recomended the ecollar?

I agree with Mike and Cindy. The way Bernhard teaches the out is quick and clear. Bernhard also teaches the dog not to out unless the command is given. I love the way Itor hangs on with a calm full grip as he and the helper are at stand off. He never outs until Bernhard says the command. Bernhard will not teach the out until the dog is ready to so he isn't causing conflict with a dog that doesn't already undertand the foundation of the focus and drive work. When the dog is ready he teaches the out quickly and clearly and it's not a drawn out process. Out is out and the dog knows it. But everyone has their own ways of training the out. You just have to pick one that you feel most comfortable with. I own an Itor daughter (Linck's sister) and will train the out like Bernhard does when she is ready for that step in her training...