Ed, Can you elaborate what you mean by the "table training methods"... Some people use Table Training to teach forced retrieves for the dumbbell.... I have read the posting on your website, but it seems like some people could use table training to their advantage? Obviously it worked because the dog was placed on the podium.

The table retrieve training can be done humanely, but that's not what we're against.

When people are talking about the negatives of table training, the concept that they're talking about is this:
A dog is placed up on a table or platform, usually a little over waist high. On the table is a sturdy pole, to which the animal is firmly attached by a very short length of chain to it's collar. The dog is then placed into defense by a severe threat, and since the animal has no possiblity of retreat, it must fight back ( usually after emptying it's anal glands and other indications of sheer panic )
Idiot trainers think that this shows how 'tough" the dog is - it's a quick and dirty way of envoking a defensive response in nearly any dog, and you can imange what the stress does to the dogs health, much less it's pysche. A fair amount of dogs are simply ruined by this type of training, and any advances that seem to occur in a dog after the training is false - given the choice, the dogs would have jumped off the table to avoid the threat.

I saw some "famous" trainers do this type of training a long time ago, and I'm sorry to say I wasn't man enough to stop it then ( being a raw beginner who didn't know any better ), but I wouldn't allow this type of training to occur in my presence now. It serves no useful purpose, and people that train that way are either barbaric, or stupid - and usually, they're both. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And "forced tracking" is almost as bad. Watch it being trained sometime and tell me that you'd be happy to have that done to your dog......

Even "table training" that is done in protection training that isn't as extreme as Will decribes turns my blood hot.

If you can't get the dog to offer the behaviors on their own, without putting them into a fight or flight situation (in this case without the flight option) then get another goddamn dog.


I find absolutely zero good use for a table in protection work. Table in obedience work is another story, if done correctly.


I think Gene England is a jackass supreme, BTW.

Ok,

I think I understand now. I have the book by Tom Rose "Training with the Touch" and Tom Rose uses table training in Obedience, and also for forced retrieves on dogs that do not hold dumbbells.

Now from what I understand, table training in Protection is entirely a different matter..


Thanks for the clarification.

I watched a handler alow his dog to be placed on a table onece as a "cure" for the dog looking towards the handler for reinforcement during bite work. It changed the dog, made him nervous, and brought out a sharpness in him he did not show prior. To this day he swears he should never have allowed the trainer to talk him into table-ing his dog and he's still paying for it now with little sucess in correcting the behavioral problems it created.

Ron - I and the people who run this board totally disagree with you on table training.

Read the article I wrote on the subject: http://www.leerburg.com/tabletrain.htm

What you are saying does not make sense - it's like saying you are a little bit pregnant or you are a little bit dead. You are correct - table training is a tool:

1- For lazy trainers,

2- For FAT trainers who dont or can't do appropriate helper work

3- For trainers who dont know better - usually people who simply dont fully understand the principles of protection training.

4- For abusive trainers

5- For con-artists who want to push a dog through training quickly so they can make a quick buck on a protection dog

Table training has no place in the dog sport. I just got a Schutzhunf USA pin for 25 years membershiup - table training is the worst training concept I have seen in those 25 years.

Ron - You do not need to beat a dog to screw it up. Fact is BEATING the dog is not even a part of table training. The concept is to hang the dog or give him the feeling that he will hang and show his that his only option is to fight and Flight is not an option.

The people who push this shit can sell ice to Eskimos. People new to the work can esily be lead astray and sold a bill of goods.

box training

This site shows videos of "box" training and states that it is not to be confused with Table training. Any thoughts?

Hope the link works

OK...I'll bite. What is the difference from table training other than the "box training" has 3 sides on top of a table?

Before I started training my young Rottie early last year I visited a local club. My dog was 5 months old. He came out well for the tug but didn't bark. The "helper" told me afterward if it was his dog I would put him on the table to work him. Luckily I didn't work my dog on the table and came home to get more info on table training protection and read Ed's article. I came so very close to possibly ruining my dog because he didn't bark at 5 months to suit the helper. I spoke with him several months later to discuss this. His reply was "oh I wasn't going to work him like that". Yep he was right, he isn't going to work him like that.