Renee:

Hey. Long time no see. To answer your question : "Now, why would a dog not engage a silent helper, beats me." - The dog was biting out of prey and learned that it's prey item was one that yelled. Similar to teaching a dog that a rag is a prey item and not your hand or ankle. If the dog bit out of fight he would have engaged

First, I'm a DVG fan. I like to see the more harassing courage tests. But, I don't really think that it makes MUCH difference. If a sport dog is trained to do a courage test in prey, and he does it well, it is just a matter of training to give him the experience to handle a different style of agitation. I don't see a better quality of dog at DVG events versus USA. I'm not going to make any friends here but, I think all the Schutzhund courage tests are kinda weak. :rolleyes:

VanCamp, First, I'm a big Lee Marvin fan. I Like to see a dog really prove himself too. I think it makes a BIG difference. Some dogs won't be able to handle it no matter the training. But how else can one determine the good from the bad from the ugly?

Hold on there let me clear up my point. Yelling or not yelling in Shutzhund, it will only make a difference to VERY few dogs. A decent prey dog with training will do both types just fine. If you really want to see hard core selection of good vs. bad then why bother with Schutzhund. Go see police selection work, or even Ring and KNPV stuff. (Mr. Frawley has some great videos for it. Can't go wrong plugging Ed's tapes right?) All are more of a test of courage in a dog. But that's not what we are talking about here -are we? Like I said, I think helper work LOOKS tougher in DVG than USA, but I don't see a difference in quality of dogs. Most can, and do, title in both no problem. It is a training issue. If your dog can do a good test with "american buddy style" you can train your dog to do it with "German buddy style". In this case we're measuring the distance of a yard and a meter, not a yard and a kilometer. Do you think I'm wrong? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to see the german banshee style, looks cooler. I really don't think it will make much difference, even at the club trial level, if that is the style that people are training for.

No, I think your correct. I also think that most people in dog sports, no matter the sport, would agree that the main value in the sport, besides having a good time, is measuring the dogs capabilities. Not to mention the trainers! Most of my dogs would crumble before a really tough decoy too, not because of their genetics(I don't think) but because of their owner/trainers lack of resources(good helpers) and training experience. You people involed in dog sports (clubs) should consider yourselves lucky for it really does take the whole village to raise a protection dog. I'm only able to do civil work at the fence or tied out, followed with a prey bite, But it seems to suit MY needs.

I think that another reason you see "less threatening" courage tests is money. In a really threatening courage test the helper wouldn't slow up before impact, and wouldn't draw the dog into the bite in order to make a safer catch. While this is a much better test of the dog's courage, the chance of seriously injuring the dog in the process is greatly increased.
oney then comes into play. The owner of the dog could sue the club and the helper(this can happen even if a waiver is signed prior to competition), and/or negative publicity could effect attendance at the clubs next trial. With the amount of money made in sport dogs, the liability for injuring a dog could be substantial, and depending on the clubs insurance coverage may not be covered. I think that is why at most schutzhund trials you will see the decoy make all of his threats (charging at full speed straight at the dog, body posturing, noise, etc) until the dog is about 5-10 meters away, and then take precautions in order to protect the dog.

VanCamp wrote:

****I'd like to see the german banshee style, looks cooler.****

How about a helper astride a galloping horse wearing a Viking helmet with horns? That be even mo' cooler <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . Ahhh, the possibilities are endless...

Chad wrote:

****I think that another reason you see "less threatening" courage tests is money.****

Chad, I wouldn't put it quite that way. The primary concern for everybody (I hope) is the safety of a dog. A courage test, even as it is now, is a dangerous exercise, and injuries (even fatal) do happen, not to mention how hard this work is on a helper's body. (We don't give these guys enough credit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). No, I would not want to see a helper ramming into my dog at full speed, liability or not.

You also mentioned: "With the amount of money made in sport dogs,…". What money? This is not NFL or NBA. This is an amateur sport, and not even that popular. There's much more money in show, and even then we are not talking BIG money.

And for those of you who think SchH is kinda weak, there are flashier types of sports -- besides, there is more to SchH than just a long bite.

How about a helper astride a galloping horse wearing a Viking helmet with horns? That be even mo' cooler . Ahhh, the possibilities are endless...

Von Stephanitz did once test the character of a dog with a horse, seems to me it was a Sieger. Maybe we should return to such tests at the Seiger Show.

Kevin said:
"Von Stephanitz did once test the character of a dog with a horse, seems to me it was a Sieger. Maybe we should return to such tests at the Seiger Show."

This is true, it's mentioned in Ellen Nickelsberg's website:
"In 1930, von Stephanitz was judging the Sieger Show. After putting the dogs through their paces in the ring, von Stephanitz made his decision. The dog he chose was a sheep-herding dog, Herold aus den Niederlandsitz. Some time earlier, von Stephanitz had given the dog the following courage test. The dog was placed in the down position by the owner in the middle of a large field. The owner was sent out of sight while von Stephanitz and another man mounted their horses and began to ride around the dog in smaller and smaller circles. The dog held its down. Then suddenly both riders rode to opposite sides of the field, turned and rode at a slow gallop toward each other with the dog in the middle. Von Stephanitz's horse reached the dog first. Just before his horse was about to run over the dog, the dog leaped up, grabbed the horse by the top of the neck with a full grip and held on until von Stephanitz had to knock him off with his crop. This was the kind of dog von Stephanitz knew was needed to improve the character and temperament of the breed at the time. Herold aus den Niederlausitz was selected Sieger again in 1931." http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/herding.htm

Now THAT'S a courage test! Love to see today's Sieger show dogs have to do something like that! I wonder how many would pass? For that matter, I wonder how many BSP participants would pass?

Unfortunately, Herold aus den Niederlandsitz was ignored by breeders. Apparently he wasn't very pretty.

Laura