If the decoy is reading the dog properly, it would never truly settle into fight, let alone defense for more than a split second... it would become conditioned to elicit prey responses for defensive stimuli...

This is the general sport approach to training these days. It is functional, it produces nice dogs, it does not encourage the best traits for the practical dog or for breeding the best dogs.

am I missing something? how could this damage a dog, or shorten its sport lifespan?? The way I understand it, it would strengthen the dog, since it would never be actually using its defense (survival) reactions at all during training..

What you discribed will not, what I discribed as extreme measures will. What you describe will eventually bury the dog in prey, a technique used heavily in ring sports (and frequently in schh and even in some police work) to diminish any movement on the grip, keep the dog comfortable in the grip, and prevent the dog from recognizing a threat and handling it as a threat. This makes for a wonderfully sporty dog and the good decoy will take the young dog and teach all the skills smoothly and efficiently in prey. But, you're not talking about rewarding defensive reactions here, you are talking about rewarding prey reactions. If you were rewarding defensive reactions you would see them increase, what you are seeing is rewarding prey reactions which then increase (ultimatly the ring dogs are not entering into defensive responses, if it did it would wreck them, in schh it gets a little changed as many people want to see a defensive reaction at the blindn notice the good decoy promoting this may give a sleeve to the dog but does it quickly....associated with the defensive reaction he/she doesn't give a grip then work on prey development out of a barking excercise...at least not until the dog is solid).

 Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:
This is the general sport approach to training these days. It is functional, it produces nice dogs, it does not encourage the best traits for the practical dog or for breeding the best dogs.

True, I never claimed it was a good breeding test <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:
But, you're not talking about rewarding defensive reactions here, you are talking about rewarding prey reactions. If you were rewarding defensive reactions you would see them increase, what you are seeing is rewarding prey reactions which then increase

this is where I am getting lost..
The dog is being rewarded for its defense reaction, by the decoy "flushing"... the dog then can instantly move into a prey type position, that is the whole concept, it teaches the dog that defense doesn't mean WWIII...
As the dog matures (in the work) and becomes more experienced the decoy will linger in threat longer and longer, until the dog can "comfortably" remain in defense longer and longer.. I understand what you mean about prey-lock, that is why it is imperrative that an experinced decoy work the dog at this point..

The dog is being rewarded for its defense reaction, by the decoy flushing... the dog then can instantly move into a prey type position, that is the whole concept, it teaches the dog that defense doesn't mean WWIII...

The decoy isn't rewarding defense here, it is taking the dog back into prey and the booty is given for making prey. If the decoy doesn't move the dog will eventually go into further fear related responses unless prevented from doing so (put on a short tie out with a fence behind it so it cannot flee or even attempt to flee).

but the point is... wild dogs almost always kill in prey not defense, so can working dogs..

think about this statement and then you'll realize how problematic it is. I do NOT train dogs to kill. Second if you are talking about wild animals they routinely make decisions about their prey....ooops this one is too strong, I might get hurt, lets go find something less powerful (hell, most attempts to fell prey are unsuccessful!). Prey alone will not hold a dog in a fight. If you have seen a dog that is so powerful in prey, I can bet you just haven't identified that strength it is receiving from fighting instincts.

Kevin, a simple question. At what point when the dog is in Defense doesa it turn into Fight Drive?

Hope you can clear this up for me. I've asked before and did not get a answer.
Thanks

Kevin... how do you train... to reward defense and fight drive without using prey?

It really all boils down to the fundamentals of learning every time, with unwaivering persinstance don't it? LOL

I do see Kevins point. If the dog does not see a sleeve or other prey item when threatened, he may not bite.