the first thing is to never use a blind until the dog understand the "guard" command... No reason to adda nother "fairly big" variable to the equation until the dog has the guard down solid....

begin teaching by using a short line, simply withould the bite (sleeve) until the dog first offers slack in the line.. then progress to heavy eye contact.. then finally wait for a bark.... once he offers any of the above behaviors, quickly pop the sleeve... the light bulb will come on pretty quickly....

once you get the bark... add a "guard" command.... and pop the sleeve...

it shouldn't take that long, assuming the dog is highly driven to bite <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

continue to work the dog on a regular line (6') until it is clean...

once it can run up to the decoy and guard convincingly.. then move to the blind....

This issue is one of the most important concepts for people to understand in protection work. To get the concept right makes things very clear for the dog. When the dog knows its the handler who enforces the B&H, control in all phases of the bite work improve.

VVG asks if helper corrections are common in other clubs. I can say that HELPER corrections are common in clubs all over the world. That's because their are handlers that need training all over the world, handlers that simply are incapable of handling the dogs they have or there are training directors that allow members to get ahead of themselves in training, or there is simply a miss-understanding of the training process all over the world.

Van Camp - your comment that the dog probably doesn't know the difference when the helper correction is done correctly especially when the dog has been trained with the prong - WRONG. Do not kid yourself - dogs are a lot smarter than this. They know EXACTLY who corrects them. If you get punched in the nose - do you know who hit you? Just because you went through boxing classes for 4 years does not mean that you don't know who hits you when you get hit.

Laura - no one can argue with Ivan's success. His students are very successful. You see the quality of his training when you watch people like your husband handle their dogs. Some day I would like to go to one of Ivan's seminars. The method Ivan uses to train the B&H is one method to teach the
process. But the fact is, what Ivan does is no different than helper corrections. The only difference is that this helper correction is not compulsion.

I don't agree with how he does this part of his training.

My personal feeling is that dropping the sleeve is too dangerous to be used on good tough dogs with fight drive. (The sport needs tougher dogs) A tough dog is going to hurt the helper during the training steps. The method can beused on a lot of dogs that are trained totally in prey, but thats just not something i personally am interested in. These dogs miss the fact that the
helper is a fighting partner. These dogs see the sleeve as a reward and not the fight with the helper as a reward. If they saw the fight as the reward they would take the helper if the sleeve was on or if the sleeve was on the ground. People can argue that the dog is doing this for the fight but they are wrong, they are doing it to play with the sleeve and the helper is just the motor for the sleeve.

These dogs lack the kind of intensity and fight I expect in a dog. When dogs are trained like this they look better when they are young dogs, after they have been in training for 3 or 4 years they begin to look dull.

It is much better to teach the dog that the handler is the pack leader and the handler is the one who determines who, where and how a fight will take place.

I always enjoy this thread!
Just finished a trial w/ my club and the dogs lost nothing on their bark and holds.
Yet, I almost ALWAYS initiate the work with some type of helper correction!! Exceptions to this are really powerful dogs that I'm not willing to go to war with.
I especially do this with law enforcement dogs where I spend more time utlizing helper corrections and return to them when we proceed to varying environments/ scenarios.
Ivans approach works well, unless the dogs really bite (not protest a little and grab at the helper but bite). Sometimes this can still be accomplished by the decoy pulling the dog into the arm with a leash attached to the collar while the handler approaches and admonishes the dog for its mistake.
But why helper corrections? What about the anthropomorhic answer that if my dog is met with aggression he should bite?
First, what we teach is move and you'll be bitten. Simple appraoch, simple to understand. It includes allowances for minor movement (or in the case of police dogs, natural movement to include things like protective movemetns like raising their hands to cover their face etc.).
Second, if I want the dog to look at the decoy from the outset as a potential combatant, not simply a motor behind the sleeve, I have to remove from the dogs the desire to make prey on the equipment hanging on my arm. Helper corrections do this.
Do they continue ad infinitum? NO! My dog was started with helper corrections and so has virtually EVERY dog in my club and that I have placed on the street, and once past the initial helper corrections, they will and do, fight bad guys who batter them. Do they tolerate helper corrections, sure, it is a training tool I use and keep in my basket. Does it cause the dog to not fight bad guys with sticks? No, in fact, watch a stick trained dog around someone with a stick, it is, in fact very in drive and focused.
Where do I go from the initial helper corrections? I often go to using the e-collar, w/ intermittant, frequent low level stimulations while barking. Occasionally it is used continous mode for some really difficult dogs to stop their motion into the blind with an immidiate return to momentary stimulations for the barking.
Rule of thumb.....frequent short corrections create action, a single strong correction ceases action. Barking is action so we use short repeated corrections.
The dog is also taught to be uninhibited about being hit by a stick while engaged with a helper and that displays of fighting behavior (bigger stronger grips, biting deeper, and draging down the helper for sport, any fighting that is forward such as head shaking, leg wrapping, as well as the acceptable sport behaviors for the service dogs).
Now, for those still unconvinced about the decoy correcting the dog, especially those who have the mistaken idea that they want their dog to be powerful under the stick, I will direct you to K. Mosts book. I will also state that the idea that a dog should be thundered by a guy with a stick, though pervasive in all working dog circles (and a superb test of character for breeding stock) is possible way off the mark. Dogs are simply flesh and blood, and really not great weapons. Wouldn't we be better served if our dogs meant for many types of service were taught to let go of the bad guy that swings at them and move to the opposite side and reangage? Quite honestly, one of the reasons we don't do this is that we don't want to have to explain why the bad guy got bit multiple times. The other is that sport has forced the idea that a tough dog hangs on regardless of what happens to him, I guess even if that is being beaten to death (and thereby uselessness in the event), when maybe training should take a different angle on this in regards to some service dogs.
For those in sport, whatever produces the greatest intensity at the blind and often that can be the stick given the right decoy, right handler, and proper balance to the work.
Just some food for thought.

The type of dogs that the work that Kevin describes produces great B@H on strong younger (and even some meduim)dogs, The end result is a good picture over-all for the sport.

I would caution people that are not familiar though using this method IF you do not have a seasoned instructer to guide you through it. You must be able to read a dog properly, and when done wrong you can cause more damage then good on a young dog. If you are not clear on it, then I would resort to other methods.

There are many methods that are used to imprint the B@H. Some are listed on this thread. But each dog is not the same. There are certain dogs that will let the helper grab his leash and so forth, and others that will bite the snot out of you if you were to do that to them. Some dogs may not get anything from a decoy standing on a sleeve, thus learning not to bite, while a more crazy prey dog, may be happy just fighting the sleeve with the guy who is standing on his sleeve trying to get it away from him. IF you have the kinda dog that brings the fight to the decoy, then this method will not work alone. You must be able to read the dog, and the decoys skill level to dictate what method to use.

Strange I would find this thread after this week end at our Club.

We have a dog or 2 that can get nasty in the blind or bite soon as they get to the helper in the blind/ We have a person stand away from the blind, but facing the helper so we can see thew dog approach, soon as he rounds the bilnd we yell SIT!!! The helper doesnt say a word, the dog will do a bark and hold, here comes the handler...the bite is given...So far it seems to work after a time or two.....the handler isnt saying sit and neither is the helper..Just my two cents! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:

Laura - no one can argue with Ivan's success. His students are very successful. You see the quality of his training when you watch people like your husband handle their dogs. Some day I would like to go to one of Ivan's seminars. The method Ivan uses to train the B&H is one method to teach the
process. But the fact is, what Ivan does is no different than helper corrections. The only difference is that this helper correction is not compulsion.

You're correct that what Ivan does is still a correction. I mispoke. But when the helper withholds a reward as punishment (the reward of the bite & fight) it is not the same thing as a helper who administers a physical correction. At least from the dog's perspective it's different.

Dropping the sleeve did help my husband's dog to stop bumping into the helper when he first gets to the blind. He understood that when the sleeve is dropped it means he screwed up. However, this same dog does not view physical corrections from the helper as corrections at all. For example, I've watched with amusement as a couple of different helpers (not Ivan) got irritated when my husband's dog put his front feet on the helper's chest during the fight. They tried to "correct" him by hitting his front legs & feet with the padded stick. All that accomplished was to get this dog really pissed off. He doesn't view this as a correction, but as an escalation of the fight. And he is more than eager to fight harder. The highest in drive I have ever seen this dog is the first time a helper whacked his front legs and feet with the padded stick to try (unsuccessfully) to get the dog's feet off his chest.

So at least with this dog, conventional helper physical corrections just don't work because this dog will never view them as corrections.

 Quote:

My personal feeling is that dropping the sleeve is too dangerous to be used on good tough dogs with fight drive. (The sport needs tougher dogs) A tough dog is going to hurt the helper during the training steps. The method can beused on a lot of dogs that are trained totally in prey, but thats just not something i personally am interested in. These dogs miss the fact that the
helper is a fighting partner. These dogs see the sleeve as a reward and not the fight with the helper as a reward.

My husband's dog is not a high prey drive dog, and he has not been trained totally in prey. He is mostly motivated by his desire to fight with the helper. But he is clear in the head about the rules of schutzhund... he is not allowed to bite the helper except on the sleeve... and if the helper is not wearing the sleeve he is not allowed to fight with him. These are rules that he was taught. He certainly didn't start out that way. Early in his training it was plainly obvious he would have bit the helper, sleeve or no sleeve.

If we wanted this dog to fight decoys without equipment, he would have been trained in personal protection and not in schutzhund. My guess is that he'd have done fine in that too.

Laura

I do agree on Ed on this one as I just was able to see what he was talking about just last night.

BF's dog was not trained in prey and wants to fight the helper. Although dropping the sleeve is a punishment, the correction (although not as hard as before - this was another issue) needs to come from the handler. When done that way, you start to see the light bulb go on. When the sleeve is dropped, you can see the conflict confusion start with this type of dog. So, this is not a process that is done with this dog, as he is dirty in the blind. But, when he is not dirty in the blind, he is clean throughout the remainder of the routine.

Watched a seminar where the handler always stood where the dog could see him and a third person gave the correction. Some dogs get handler sensative and shy away when the handler gives the correction. The handler could give a verbal correction, but the phyical came from a person behind the dog, holding a long line. Cathy

Cathy,

I think it also depends on the level (at what point in the training) and intensity of the dog. I would not want to be on the long line, doing the correction on BF's dog. And the dog loves me....

Funny, that's what I'm working on now. Before we just had to get him to bark when he went to the blind. Now we proofing, cleaning up etc. Way we started doing BH was the dog to have a long line on about 10-15 ft let him get to about 6 inches in front of the helper with me (handler) doing corrections to keep him from trying to grab the sleeve, jump the helper etc. He finally got the point to go up, sit, bark then gets the bite. Last few wks we've put him on a pole with me standing at least 6 ft away, prong collar with long line to another person off to the side of the helper and helper in front of the dog with the dog on agitation collar. This is working very well without him getting corrections from me or getting handler shy by paying attention to me instead of the helper when I walk up. Another couple wks this will be finished.