Molly,
We recently had a Delta Therapy Dog Program start in my area. Because I actively do demonstrations with my dogs, I was invited to bring my dogs and received the manual. Unsure what the requirements are with TDI, but with Delta, they have a new policy:

 Quote:

Certain dogs will no longer be permitted to be Pet partners: Dogs trained to aggressively protect and/or encouraged to actively bite, even as a component of a dog sport(ie: Schutzhund) shall not be evaluated. This is primarily a liabitity issue. Although many dogs trained this way are wonderful and under very good control, it is a risk that would be a concern if a handler is approached in what may be perceived a threatening manner. Although the dog may be brought quickly under control, the dog has already reacted.

JFTR: My working springer passed, his only fault, he is a little too happy (read=wiggly) As far as my GSD, I never had intentions to certify her. She has done bite training and was imprinted for such. But what the hell.....well, she did great with all exercises, solid temperament with people, good obedience, until...The evaluator role-played an angry mental patient, in a big fuzzy robe and 'assaulted' the 'nurse'. Needless to say, the genetics surfaced. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> She was under control and put in a down. But she reacted.

The evaluator stated that "when she locked eyes with me, I knew to stop the scenario." And backed away quietly. She was graded 'not ready'.

This is a dog that can have 10 children hanging off her, likes to hang out with people and has been socialized from day one.

I can understand why Delta Society has this new policy. Maybe TDI should consider it as well. BTW, I'm not disappointed, rather, I'm a bit smug! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

i don't get it. would they rather have a dog that allows such behavior.......angry mental patient assulting nurse? congratulations on your dog's failure! no gsd who is worth his salt would put up with that. dumb test - dumb people. :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the input. Patricia I appreciate your point of view, however, therapy dog work and protection work even as a sport are on opposite sides of the dog world. What is appropriate in one is not so good in the other.

I don't have a problem not passing this guy, its that I need concrete reasons other than my gut feeling. However, I've sent him for a 2nd evaluation with a very wise long term dog handler and I expect the same results. Two gut feeling equal a fact as far as I concerned.

Brian, I couldn't reply privately to your e-mail, but you can go to: http://www.therapydogs.com and get their contact info to ask for a tester in your area. If you allow private e-mail in your profile I'll send you more information. But let me know if you do.

Long range I'd like to qualify as a tester for several different organizations including Delta.

Thanks for all of the input.

Molly McLaughlin

My Rottie bitch was certified by TDI and had her SchH II and a WH. Shw was a weak dog in protection though ( this was early in my SchH days )
She was a popular dog in Nursing homes and other therapy outlets, and I was actually fairly active in it with my OB club in Central Florida . It was alot of fun.

So a SchH dog with the right temperment can easily pass the TDI test ( I still have her TDI card as a reminder of her, by the way )

That being said, I wouldn't give the Delta society the time of day if their evaluators aren't skilled enough to actually temperment test a dog and they have to resort to blanket bans. :rolleyes:

Hi Will:

I read your post and thought about it on the way home. The question of Schutzhund training and Therapy Dog work is a tough one for me. Here's why--I don't have a problem with Schutzhund, I often have a problem with the handlers. My background involves alot of "breed rescue" with "problem" Chows. Some of them can be worked with some can't. The only way the aggressive ones can be managed is to convince them that they work for you--period. This takes alot of time and effort. The end result is that they're fairly safe with one handler, because they don't make a decision without that handlers okay. With this as my background it makes me very nervous when I hear people people proudly describing their dogs tough attitude or how people should be scared of their dog. It seems to me that if a person is going to encourage aggressive behaviors for any reason then they owe to the dog to be completely in control of the dog, otherwise, it seems irresponsible. I would have no trouble certifying a Schutzhund dog if I trusted the handler and the handlers relationship to the dog. I would be interested on your thoughts.

I've actually been interested in Schutzhund for a long time and really like the approach to obedience work. But have you ever heard of a Chow competing in Schutzhund?

Molly McLaughlin

Well..... I guess that if you look at SchH handlers as a whole, we're not a "feely, touchy" bunch for the most part ( Fetz and I are a very tender, delicate team...but that's another story <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). But many SchH handlers have great bonds with their dogs, especially the HOT ( handler/ owner trained ) dog/handler teams. And yes, there is the macho, bruiser crowd in SchH, who are the minority nowadays ( and I'm thinking that you wouldn't see those types too often even looking into therapy dog service ).

As far as a Chow in SchH - never in my 20 + years have I ever even heard of one competing in SchH. I can count the number of times that I've seen them in AKC Obedience in the low dozens of times, and I'm sure that I've competed in AKC ob trials several hundred times now.
They're out there, but they're a rare bird indeed....

I'm not planning on picking up a new dog for a few more years. (Two at a time is enough for me nowadays) But who knows, maybe we'll try for the first Schutzhund Chow, but boy I hope there's some lead plated bite suits out there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Molly McLaughlin

With this Delta evaluator, he was duplicating possible scenarios that may happen in varied environments. (Hospitals, nursing homes, juvenile centers, schools for learning disabilities, ect.) As a Therapy dog team, you, the handler is the judge of what environments you wish to expose your dog to and what would be best for him.

I don't think the test was wrong, after dealing with mental patients and irate people, I can see their point. You just never know what may happen in any given situation. It all comes down to liability issues and sue-happy people.

A point that should be considered is that bite trained dogs are just that, trained to bite! They are taught that the yelling, gesturing person is the one to go after. So for my dog, this was what she was supposed to do. (she is still young and that big fuzzy robe looked tempting!) Will I ever own the extreme mellow dog that Delta is looking for? Probably not. But I will not discount the standards they require.