I'm not a big fan of "clicker training", but it sounds like you are on to something. Its always good to keep an open mind so if its working for you, more power to you! Good luck to you.

Thank you Chuck, but I am interested in what you don't like about clicker training.
I am new to it, and it works in some situations for me. Especially marking time.
I find that if I am training an exercise I can click when the dog does exactly what I want. The negative side is that you have to be consistant, and immediate. Timing is everything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But isn't that the truth with all training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have to say that I am more inclined to give the treats myself in light of a few of these discussions.

Could someone explain clicker training to me, please? I looked into it a few years ago when it became quite a rage, and since it didn't make much sense to me, I quickly dismissed it as another gimmick. Now that it's been mentioned on this forum, I'll appreciate a refresher course :-).

Phyllis,

I would never entirely rule it out if it worked in a certain situation. Non-dominant lovable kind of of dogs could possibly respond well to clickers in certain situations. However with truly dominant dogs, forget about it. Ed has an excellent article on his site involving clicker training. He brings up some great points mostly against them. I agree with what he says on the subject. Rather than repeat what he says, I suggest you read it. However as I said earlier, if using the clicker for certain circumstances works for you, then by all means go for it. I just don't think that it is a method that can be completely relied upon, and is more of a fad.

I agree that labs have a strong food drive, and would probably eat themselves to death quite happily. My last lab learned very quickly at a very young age, with mouse traps and consitant corrections, that found food, including items in the garbage container and food on the counter or table, were always off limits.
Things changed when, in his old age, he became mostly a companion dog for my mother who was chair-bound. The rule evolved that anything she dropped onto her lap was still hers, and so was forbidden. Anything that fell to the floor or was tossed to him by her was his to eat. I never liked it, but it made her, and the dog, happy. Bottom line is, he never tried to take food from her, which he certainly could have done very easily. This probably isn't much help, but labs can learn when its appropriate to take food and when its not. Best of luck.
johne

Hi Renee, I will try to explain this to the best of my ability. I'm not going to use fancy terms here.
Clicker training is used to shape behaviour, or mark the time of a behaviour or mark a specific behaviour.
What you would do is get the dog used to the clicker by clicking once and giving a treat.
You do this several times until the dog associates the sound with a treat.
From then on, he only gets a treat if you click. You decide on the behaviour to train.
I have a few examples of what I'm doing.
1. I taught bark on command. He was over a year old and wouldn't bark unless he was crated or worked up. I would get him worked up and he would bark I would immediately click and treat. This went on for a bit, then I would click, say "good guard" guard is my word for speak. Then give him the treat. I gradually would say "guard" he would bark, I would click say good guard and treat. Eventually I just said guard, he would bark, I would click and say "good guard". I have now taken the clicker away, and the food. He is praised by my "good guard" and a pet and food intermittently.
2. I am doing target training with him now.
I have a laser pointer. I point the pointer on the ground, he looks at it and gets click/treat. After a bit, when he does this well, I do the same, but no click/treat until he touches it with his nose. Eventually I will use it for him to pick up items that are dropped. He will have to bring them to me. I am teaching this through play too. I may have to do the forced take/hold/give, but I am open to ideas about this.
3. Teaching stairs. He came to me terrified of stairs. I have him going up and down the stairs now. He goes up like a bounding horse. I will get him to step up one and click and treat, gradually increasing the number of steps. Clicking and treating at each level. He comes down the stairs beside me in a controlled manner now.
I don't know if I am explaining this well or not, but let me know if you have any questions. BTW I always fade the clicker and the food, he eventually works for my command and hand praise.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will search Ed's site for the information.
I hadn't seen the article. As I said, I am new to it, and it has worked in my situation, but that's not to say it would in all. A mal trainer that I highly respect once told me that there are as many training theories as there are trainers.
I can learn forever! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I have read Ed's article and I have to agree with it, for the most part.
I don't use the clicker exclusively. I use it for specific training tasks. I use a prong collar, and an e-collar for other specific tasks. I have used a gentle leader, and while it is a good way for a weaker person to control the dog, it doesn't train a darn thing. The clicker works for me with things that I don't want to use compulsion for. There are some things that I want to be positive, like his lack of experience on the stairs, but I am VERY open to other suggestions in training controlled walk up the stairs. This is more of an agility issue I think? I don't believe that any dog can be reliably trained without corrections. Any dog will veer away from it's tasks when new to them. This is where distraction work comes in, and corrections.
Some people may find that complete minding of the handler isn't necessary, but I don't.
My dogs have to listen to me. So I will try anything once if it makes sense to me. I am not a hard trainer, I tend to the soft side, but I am realistic as well, not a bleeding heart that some of the comments about clicker training would have you believe. :rolleyes:

You sound very logical in you approach. like I said earlier, if something works for you by all means go for it. You are smart by not comletely relying on the clicker. I have 2 cupcake dogs(Lab, Golden). I don't have dominance issues like I did with other dogs in the past. This causes me to have a bit of a "soft" side as well.(Of course some on this board may not agree! LOL) Different dogs obviously will respond to different methods. Like Ed says, good dog training is not rocket science, its common sense.

Phyllis, thank you for your reply. I s'pose I'm as dense now as I was a couple of years ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . I also taught my dogs to bark on command using pretty much the same methods as yours, minus the clicker. To me it just seems like an unnecessary extra step. Is it supposed to make the dog anticipate a reward, and eventually replace a reward? If that's the case, why not use verbal praise instead? When I have more time, I'll dig up Ed's article that Chuck mentioned.

I am also curious about the target training you described (disclaimer: I know nothing about assistance training). How does a dog progress from pointing a laser beam on the floor to picking up and bringing objects back to you? What is the association? I've only trained dumbbell retrieves for SchH, forced retrieves in the past, and now I'm trying motivational approach with my new project. I begin with teaching "take" and "hold" first. However, I understand that retrieving for assistance is much more complicated.

Thanks again--I'm always open to new ideas.