Thomas,

Why don't you ask them to join the board and jump into the conversation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thomas,

If your dog is already confident and strong why do you need to put them on a table to build more? It seems unless your dog is lacking in that area and using it as a last resort to build something that's missing (strong nerves) then the dog shouldn't be doing bite work. Please explain your reasons for using the table on your own dog.

Hi Karmen,

The table is just a piece of equipment. My girl at 15 months, old was too defensive and not
confident. The skills of the trainer (Gene England) was the deciding factor in bringing her out. The height of the table made it easier for him to see the reaction of the dog. Made the dog more confident since
the trainer doesn't need to hover over the dog. There was no
bite work with her. Gene peeked out from behind a blind, she barked him back. He gradually increased the level of agitation
while building her confidence.
When the session was finished, she was the baddest ass on the field :-) She controlled the decoy, made him retreat with her
power and her bark VBG
Of course, any moron can chain a dog to a table and beat the crap out of him, this isn't table training, it's just bad training. It just seems like some people are too quick to condemn a tool, because it has
been missused.
This is an appropriate subject for this forum. What I object to, is personal attacks and demeaning comments about people who aren't here.

Thomas

Lets get something straight right here in public. I suggest that you listen and re-read this email.

Steve Leigh is a slug. As far as I am concerned he is a low life piece of garbage guard dog trainer. The guy has a screw loose in his head - that is evident from the emails that I get from him. I have blocked his emails from my system.

I have also seen the trash talk this jerk has written and posted about me on protection dog list. Those posts were forworded to me.

I am not and do not care to be a member of the protection dog list. I was several years ago and dropped out. Leigh and I went at it then - so I have a history with this jerk. I am not a fan of lists that operate by sending e-mails to members - I get 50 to 100 normal personal emails every day as it is and I don't care to get any more tha that.

So this is the way this board works - I look at it as my back yard. If you want to come in and play thats fine. But if I don't like you or if I think you are a piece of garbage I will kick you out of my back yard. Thats a very easy and clear way to look it. I could give a rip if people like Leigh or you don't like the rules. If you don't like the game then don't play in my back yard!

As far as your opinion of table training is concerned, it is eveident that you are new to this work and do not know much about protection dog training. You have a lot to learn. Your comments on the hieght of the table and the dog feeling confident because it does not have to look up at the helper indicate your lack of understanding of what is really going on. All that tells me is that "You bought into the sales pitch" - thats what happened.

Gene England is a good dog trainer. He knows exactly what he is doing. He also knows how dangerous this work is when it is done poorly. Why do you think he has never done videos on this work?

People who are new to protection dog work (like you) fail to understand that bite training is not like obedience training. Bite training in the eyes of the dog borders on combat training. Not all dogs (or 15 months old puppies)are ready for real combat. Putting them on a table, in a position where they have to learn to defend themselves from a helper is traumatic situaton for them - contrary to what you or Leigh may think.

Now you take someone with 20% less skill than Gene England and have them work on the table and screw up one time (it only takes one time) and this combat situation turns into a fear - life and death situation to the dog. The experience is like a women getting rapes. THEY DO NOT FORGET THIS - NOT EVER !!!!! Ask a women who has been raped if the fear ever leave her mind - I can tell you from experience on the sheriff's department that it does not.

So don't give me your beginner song and dance sales pitch. Go learn something about how to properly train a protection dog.

It all comes back to this - if you have a well trained helper that understands how to take a dog through prey drive devlopment and work him into a little defense and aggression drive (if the dog has aggression or fight drive) there is no need for these stupid tables.

Not all dogs can or should be trained to do protection work. Even when it is done properly many dogs simply do not have the genetic make-up for the work.

Guard dog trainers, like Steve Leigh, have to be able to work with everything that walks through their front door - regardless of genes. For them table training is the solution to a dog whose genetic make-up cannot do the work with correct training.

Schutzhund clubs that try and train show dogs who don't have the genetic make-up (solid nerves) for sport work are also people who use this mehtod of work. Many (not all) show dog people want their dogs to look like a badass. Putting them on a table and working them in defense and fight or flight will create just that picture.

But when guys like you and Leigh start telling new sport dog trainers that this is the second coming of christ - well thats a line of bull. Any new trainer who buys into this has not been exposed to good helpers who understand the drives of a dog and how to use these drives in a solid foundation of bite development. There are much better ways to train a dog.

What I find interesting is that you had Bernard Flinks in NM is past March. I was there and did not see you at his seminar. Flinks is one of THE BEST sport dog trainers in the world. You seem to be missing the ball on your dog training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Thomas states
"If you think, table training is such a bad training etc. why didn't you state your opinion last February to Gene England when he was at John Oliver's place? I"m not sure if you were there, since I don't know you, but everything I saw Gene do, for the three days was positive and built confidence in every dog put on the table, including mine? homas states "

I went with an open mind. Allowed a seminar instructor to present his material and provide information on the work. I had oportunities to ask him questions in private as well and I then evaluated what I saw and heard. I have also observed many dogs who have been worked on the defense table later on down the line. This is my opinion. Gene has every right to present his approach with out some rude attendee at his seminar pushing buttons. I don't know which dog was yours at the seminar but there wasn't a single one that would allow Gene's ability to work with dogs shine that he worked at the seminar you are refering to. It didn't change my opinion of the defense work. Each and every dog worked was brought into survival drive and it is simply my feeling that this is a last resort approach to training the apprehension phases of schh or police dogs. In all disciplines i have been exposed to avoiding letting the dog slip into survival is expected of the skilled decoy unless all other options fail. Most instruction revolves around the development of prey then working fight behaviors over a strong foundation of prey. Gene's approach is pretty much oposite. Most good decoys know this method (although the table makes it easier to perform) and can and will use it to bring weak dogs or poorly balanced dogs into some level of choreographed work. Some very high prey dogs are placed in such situations due to being totally locked into the equipment if the decoy sees no other means of "breaking into" the dogs other drives. yet, these are exceptions to the rule of never never letting your dogs confidence suffer during training.

I mentioned this in other thread but I’ll repeat it here. There was a dog in a club that was a good point dog but lacked some spunk(drive). We had a helper from Germany come train with us. He won the World in the Late 80’s and was a well respected helper (No need for names). He tied this dog to a pole and whipped him so hard no one could even look. After 10 minutes he brought the dog on the field and he hit harder than any dog there. But if you looked in his eyes there was something missing. It was creepy. This dog was no longer the same. Its nerves were shot. Unfortunately I lack the experience or understanding to give an educated opinion so my story will have to do.

Ed Frawley writes:

What I find interesting is that you had Bernard Flinks in NM is past March. I was there and did not see you at his seminar. Flinks is one of THE BEST sport dog trainers in the world. You seem to be missing the ball on your dog training.

>Ed
> I would have liked to
>attend one of Flinks seminars, Unfortunately I can't afford to drive down from Colorado to New Mexico
two months in a row :-(

As far as my lack of knowledge, understanding etc. etc. of dog training, I learned most of what I know from your videos:-)

Seriously, if being "allowed"
to play in your backyard means I can't disagree with you on table training or anything else or that I'm insulted if I do.
I choose NOT to participate. I still may buy the Flinks video when it is released VBG

Kevin,

I understand what you are saying and agree that the table has a potential for damage in the wrong hands. I was assured that Gene knew what he was doing and that my dog would benefit from the experience. I found that to be true and am looking forward to his next seminar.
My dog was the 15 month old uncropped Dobermann bitch.
I was video taping in the front row. Before anyone asks, the video tape is NOT
available.
I guess if training wasn't
based on differences of opinions, it wouldn't be half as much fun.
This will probably be my last
post here, too constricting

No !! the issue is that some dogs do not have the geentic make-up to be protection trained. If the owners of those dogs chose to not recognize this fact and still try and protection train their dogs they only have one option and that is FIGHT OR FLIGHT (table training).

That is the issue - this is not about differences of opinion this is about differnces of experience. Opinions are like ass holes - eveyone has one - its just that some people have the experience to back their opinions and some do not. You fall into that catagory.

If you want some advice - let your dog be a nice pet. I have talked to some peopel who know your dog !

Hmmm, I'll nibble...

The thing with protection is that it's the ultimate non-compulsive activity. You can make a dog sit. You can make a dog fetch. But if someone threatens you, you cannot pry your dog's jaws open and throw your dog at the person.

When all is said and done, it is the dog itself that must decide that it wishes to step forward. If the desire is there in any measure, then we can refine and hone it, but we cannot put it there. And if we try to force a dog to step forward, we destroy whatever it has.

I think that the great attraction of table training and its analogues is that it seems to work. It works on every dog no matter training or temperament, it works fast and the results look impressive. And to begin with, every single person who has their dog subjected to such 'training' is all in favour and just cannot, will not, see any problem with it.

Overwhelmingly, these dogs do not protect. I say this as a person who's heard the complaint, 'after all the money I've spent on my dog, I got robbed and it didn't even BARK.' On a little thought, why should they? They've been very well taught NOT to as a matter of fact. They've been taught that people are dangerous and untrustworthy and they've bitten only because they really had no way out. But in the Real World, there is a way out and believe me, they take it.
Owners complain of something else. These dogs become untrustworthy and especially dangerous to those they perceive as weaker or easily bullied. But even owners get bitten eventually and the truly terrifying thing is the suddenness with which attacks can occur.

Ignorance aside (and ignorance is a big factor), I think that a lot of people feel that the only useful 'protection dog' is the one that bites.
Perhaps it's a little simple minded of me to say so, but I think that true protection consists of whatever makes you safer. I think that a dog that has been taught to reliably alert, whose owner knows its limitations and and uses his dog as part of a well-thought-out overall plan is a far, far more useful dog than one that has been pushed into biting or even one that has been given a proper foundation in bitework but whose owner does not use it properly.

These are just my two cents and like I said, I'm simple minded. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />