Rankness comes in diffrent levels. It does not mean that because a dog is rank, that it will attack the handler. Rankness can be diplayed in growling, a knip at the handler and so fourth. If these issues are not dealt with then they can progress to a more aggresive attack.
A dominate dog is for the most part noramlly rank to some degree. Very few true dominate dogs do not show signs of rankness towards the handler unless they were handled and trained properly and the handler aggression was dealt with at an early age. If you see a dog that appears dominate, and he displays no rankness towards his handler, then this dog most likley was taught at an earlier age the order of the pack. The two noramally go hand in hand, but there are a few exceptions. When you are talking about a true dominate dog, then there normally is or was some rank problems along the way. Most dominate dogs have some social aggression. If these type of dogs are taught whne they are young that they are not in charge, these animals normally make stronger protection dogs, when trained for protection. You do not need a true dominate dog that is rank to protect you, there are other easier to handle dogs that will get he job done also. I think it is a matter of prefrence and skill level.

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Michael,
Most dominate dogs have some social aggression. If these type of dogs are taught whne they are young that they are not in charge, these animals normally make stronger protection dogs, when trained for protection. You do not need a true dominate dog that is rank to protect you, there are other easier to handle dogs that will get he job done also. I think it is a matter of prefrence and skill level.

Butch: This is a must IMHO, This basic foundation should be a priority. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Butch: Good post Michael

The expression of dominance and rank behavior can be different with different breeds. In many of the more popular breeds the rank and dominance tend to occur together. In some of the less popular breeds they don't. The dogs tend to be domnant towards other animals and people that aren't the top of the order. In some cases the dog can look rank in the presence of a weak leader.

As an example the BRT tends to be very dominant, though not rank. In the presence of other dogs they will definitely attempt to dominate. Rarely do they have a problem accepting direction from their handler, as long as they are taught early to follow direction. A friend of mine got a puppy back because of "rank" behavior. The people that took the dog became afraid of the dog particularly when grooming him. It started as a snarl and progressed to snapping. When the breeder took the dog back, he reestablished pack order with the dog. That did not stop the dog from challenging him, the dog just didn't do it directly. The dog just did things that he knew the handler didn't want him to do. That took a little longer to restablish the control.

In contrast the Giant Schnauzer tends to be rank as a breed, particularly the males. Even if the dog is well under control, and the dog is responding to the handler well, they will still attempt to try and take over by attempting to go after the handler. The funny thing about it is it is always directed at the "alpha" figure. Even if there are other people in the house.

Over the years I believe that rankness has increased in the more popular breeds. The belief seems to be that it is required for a strong dog. There are very strong, dominant dogs that just aren't rank, unless you train it in to them. This isn't really the type of "rankness" generally refered to in this context.

I am not sure I agree that the rankness has increased in the more popular breeds. I am seing a better quaility Malinois, that are very trainable, and I am seeing weaker GSD, and weaker Rotts overall. The lack of working abilty, forget about rankness seems to be on the decline. I wish I would see more GSD displaying more dominance and even rankness; it would at least confirm that people are trying to produce a working GSD.
Your statement may very well be true, in other breeds of popularity, I just have not had the exposure to as many other breeds in numbers that I have had to the above.
It is my feeling though that most mature dogs that display high levels of rankness had this trait within from genitcs, but the rankenss was allowed to develope into a problem through a variety of reasons.

Michael,

Exactly my point. In the working dogs you do see more rankness than in the Past in the GSD. In my experience in the past the GSD was very rarely rank in the working dogs. In addition, as you just stated, people look at the rank dogs as the working dogs. In the breeds that are loosing the working ability it is this rankness, combined with the dominance, that got people breeding to eliminate the working temperament. The dominance can be hard to deal with, rankness is something that most people won't put up with (except working people). I blame the decrease in working ability partially on this.

I do not agree. The more dominant dog, that has prey drive, will produce a better working dog, at least your chances are better at producing a medium character dog. I am sorry, breeding a medium character male to a lower character female will not bring a good working dog in most cases. Study true working bloodlines and you will see who the better producers are in the GSD breed. The decline cannot be blamed on people breeding dominant dogs, but people breeding for looks rather then work abiltiy. Pick-up a curent issue of Dog WOrld and tell me what you see.
From my exposure, there is not many, what I would define as a true rank, dominant dog as from what I have been told from many top trainers that have been around real working dogs since the 1970's in Germany. I have also seen many of these dogs on video. If the case was that there were an abundance of dominant dogs today, we would not have the problems with the working GSD. That is not a realistic point of view. It baffles me how one could blame this breeding practice on the decline of the working GSD today. It is my feeling, that views like this will only make the breed suffer.
I will tell you Richard,last year and including up to March, I must have tested at least 60 young GSD for top level sport, or police, and out of that I along with two other trainers slected only 8 tha tcould make patrol dogs, and about 4 more that could make very nice point dogs. Out of that maybe two had any real hardness, or were dominant dogs. If the odds were worse then this years ago, I do not think that the GSD would even be in police service today as a patrol dog.

Michael,

Not as much dominant, but rank dogs. A dog can be dominant without being rank. The people breeding for show want to eliminate the dominant dogs becaue they aren't as easy to work with when there is a "strange" handler (Someone notthe dogs owner).

The cases now is that more of the dominant dogs have rank issues than in the past, same with hardness. You can have a dominant hard dog that isn't rank. It is important that these things be considered seperately. They are being seen more in a common grouping in dogs, but that hasn't always been the case. What I had always worked with were hard, dominant, but not rank dogs. Much better for a working dog because they can and will do the work, but they don't have that desire to establish rank in their litle social world through aggression towards the handler/owner.

Richard,

What you are saying does not make sense. I bet the reason you haven't had rank problems is because you probaly know what your doing. I would image you give the dog as a puppy to someone else (inexperienced or a submissive personality) and there would be 'rank' problems somewhere along the line. Since there are more people involved with dog sports now I would image more 'rank' problems have appeared.

Still, Im confused as to how a dog that is dominate would not be rank; how could you have a dog with no dominance that was rank? It would seem to me what you describe as rankness is more a handler problem. Or maybe your Schauzer was truly dominate, and your BRT isn't, its just a confidate dog. Also you said that the BRT tends to dominate towards things outside his back. That sounds like it just not as dominate as the Schauzer. I would think a truely dominate dog try to go after the alpha, and would not need to look outside is group/pack.

Its kinda of funny Manfred Lerner is mentioned here and your talking about rank and dominance. This is reason why he doesn't like GSD. He thinks they too are nice, and will except a new handler to easily.

Robert

Robert,

The reason the terms are defined seperatly is that they occur seperatly. BRT males are very dominant as a breed, with little in the way of rank problems. A Giant in the same situation will be rank, it is just a breed difference. You are not likly to see a rank dog without domanince. It is one of those theorectical occurances.

A dominant dog that has a weak leader is more likly to demonstrate the type of behaviors that are described as rank, but it isn't always a true rank behavior. These are dogs that are taught how to get away with this type of behavior. With a true rank dog it will exhibit this type of behavior reguardless of the handler. It will take a good handler to control it, a weak handler is just going to get rid of the dog.

Since the Giant was my breed of choice for a long time, I have dealt with my fair share of rank issues. It was this lack of rank behavior that is one thing that attracted me to the BRT. One of the descriptions you will see with the BRT is that the males shouldn't be kept together because they will tend to fight. They will exhibit this type of behavior in the prescence of other male dogs.

The problem with the definiton is part of why people will accept the rank dog as an acceptable "working" dog. If you don't identify these 2 behavior types as seperate, you will accept the rankness as a function of the dominance that really needs to be associated with a good working dog. If you don't look at the behaviors as seperate then you will breed the 2 things together thinking that the rankness is required for the dominance. The comment by Lerner would be an example of the difference between a dominant dog (desiring to be dominant outside of the pack structure) but willing to accept a new leader, vs a rank dog that is going to have problems with any leader. The good GSD's I have dealt with will accept a new leader after an adjustment period, but they tend to only recognize a single leader (dominance).

There seems to be more people that desire the dog with "a little rankness" as the acceptable working character. There are people that prefer the challange of this type of dog. Combine that with a greater demand for the dogs, and you will see more rankness in the popular breeds.

Richard, it is very unlikley that you will have a hard dominant dog, and have no rank issue's to deal with along the way. I suspect that either someone dealt with the rank issue's in htese tough dogs that you handled, or you dealt with them as you raised them. The two behaviors in most cases go hand in hand at some point in the dogs life.