Kevin

Its something we use as a test of courage that shows a williness to protect (we thought), I see no difference in this, then the long 25-50 yrd handler protection routine down field, after sending him out after another decoy, he is recalled either by the handler or he notice the handler threaten. This is a test required by the World street dog protection Assoication, (might be misspelled) the WSDPA. Of course this is done with a nearly cleared field.

Now I see every reason why this was stopped by many police departments after this discussion, but its news to me. I found out more then I bargain for thanks. Do you think this may have something to do with the hardness of these dogs, that they will bite anybody in the way?

Dennis
Do you suppose that the patrol dog bit the police handler because he was excited and not really attached to the handler. Would this be the case if the dog was dog raised by handler from 8 weeks old? Sometimes a patrol dog can have numerous handlers. Now that was a whole new can of worms, that you introduce, interesting.

And it did knock me over to imagine that the dogs is doing all this just to get a bite and have fun. Not for me??

I thought his intensity was due to Dad being in trouble, I'll have to ponder this. Again more information then I bargain for. "TMI" Too much information, because I want to beleieve he is doing it for me. I'm enjoying the the different views and the events that only years of training could bring. Am I thinking that the dog thinks like a human?

Question. Then, why is it that he won't do it for any of the other handlers??? He'll jump out of the car and come to me, he may bark at the guy that nearest or wearing the sleeve. But he won't try to bite the helper until or unless he pushing or upon me? I raised since he was 8 weeks old.

Richard
Now that the type answer I wanted, I hope your feet didn't get too dirty. But thanks, thanks to you all I feel like I've just saved $1-2k dollars but I'll have to spend another $500 to fll in the gaps, I have to do it before I really learn it. I think its a learning disability. Its a gut feeling, huh, another intangible for me, right now.

Wow between the three of you I feel like I've been in the time machince, what was, is not now and what is yet to be has yet to be defined.

I kinda see how vauge and ignorant my question was now, Richard. But no pain no gain and I learned a lot. Who else wants to kick me in the rear as I fill my cup up.

Damn that was the most forfiling discusion saying that I'm outdated and don't know what I doing yet, that I've had, in a long time.

Thanks guys

Do you mind if I show this to the guys, we may consider stopping this practice coming from you guys.

Kevin

When I look at the big picture, you are right. I could only see deploying my dog only in the most dire emergency, multiple unarmed attacks where deadly force is not needed. But the threat that someone is going to get hurt really bad, is. Or if a guy had a weapon, he have to face the option of teeth or 12 gauge shoot gun, if he tried to hurt my dog or pointed the weapon at me (on my property) he is bought.

I really don't want my dog to bite anybody, that means they will be away from me for at least two weeks to month and I'll have to hear people saying that they might have to destroy them if it wasn't justified, worst case sceniro. But I have seen situations were the dog was not even removed from the home the bad guy just goes to the hospital/jail with a torn ass.

But its still fun training the dogs to protect, it still brings a tear to my eye, the heart these dogs have.

Dennis I don't wanta beleive that, its not for me. Tell me ain't so.

Richard another reason to be fit enough to kick butt, when you have to. Be on top. Eye opening results.

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:

Dennis
Do you suppose that the patrol dog bit the police handler because he was excited and not really attached to the handler. Would this be the case if the dog was dog raised by handler from 8 weeks old? Sometimes a patrol dog can have numerous handlers. Now that was a whole new can of worms, that you introduce, interesting.

The dog was bonded after 3-4 years I would think. I believe it would not make a difference if the handler raised it for the reasons Richard stated.

Interesting?..yes it is.

Answer to dog biting handler on loosing end of fight.

I am a police k9 handler ad have witnessed an expirement with a well bonded team. The handler was on the bottom and the decoy was on top of the handler. This dog also went after the handler.

The most likely reason seems to be that the dogs instincs take over and they naturally go for the prey that is on the ground. The handler being low on the ground represents a piece of prey and the decoy represents another pack animal feeding. The dog engages the handler as if he is trying to survive and get a piece of prey to carry off. LUNCH TIME!

If this question has already been answered sorry.

John D

John, brain stroming with as many inputs from various like experience makes the theory a near fact.

Just recently a patrol dog was shot by another policeman after the dog bit the uniformed officer
when the dog was release to assits in apprehending a subject that was attempting allude officers after a 10-29 chase. The subject was later apprehended.

I never understood why the patrol dog bit until now, they can be unpredictable, from a general public view. Until you hear of these report.

Kinda makes you wanted stay in shape, I think I'll hit the bar bells tonight.

In support of Kevin's comments on the dog only coming out of the car when called.... some of you may have heard about the recent incident here in greater Pittsburgh where while wresteling with an actor, the k-9 officer's door opener was popped and the dog exited the car. Unfortunatly the dog ended up biting a kid who was not involved. Even more unfortunatly it spurred a huge debate nationally about PSD's being racist and their training to target minorities. Politicians were calling for the k-9 to be put to sleep. That my friends is a nightmare.

To me it points to an increase in the quality of the dog and it’s training. The officer should be able to move with his dog on leash and control him with a command. Remember the “good guy/bad guy training" we talked about? We highlighted briefly how some trainers teach the dog he is not allowed to engage unless told to regardless of the dog’s willingness to fight.

Having “fire with desire” on a leash is one thing, but that is not good enough for today’s standards. It comes back to the dog and the standards of training that are practiced. When your dog is a liability because you lack the control, so much you feel you must contain him then you have problems as far as I am concerned.

I am not saying the dog needs to be all fuzzy toward the average Joe but the officer should at least be able to say to his dog QUITE and the dog does for example. I think the practice of auto releasing the dog from the vehicle is a nice marketing tool/lazy training solution for dogs who are difficult to control.

Still the fact the dog bites the one on the bottom of the pile is not about control but an interesting quadrant into one part of canine psychology.

That is very interesting but does not surprise me at all. Even if it is the dogs instinct to help eliminate the weakest to align himself with the more dominant, couldnt this still be over come through training? I wonder if anyone trains specfically for this by setting these scenarios up so the dog doesnt recognize it as anything other than another excersice it has seen before.I beleieve this is something I may try.The handler should at the least be able ,through training, to tell his dog to aus and platz if the dog made the wrong choice in any situation.

To me it points to an increase in the quality of the dog and it’s training. The officer should be able to move with his dog on leash and control him with a command. Remember the “good guy/bad guy training we talked about? We highlighted briefly how some trainers teach the dog he is not allowed to engage unless told to regardless of the dog’s willingness to fight.

Having “fire with desire” on a leash is one thing, but that is not good enough for today’s standards. It comes back to the dog and the standards of training that are practiced. When your dog is a liability because you lack the control, so much you feel you must contain him then you have problems as far as I am concerned.

This is overly simplistic.
The dynamics of training a dog for police work and the realities of deploying in a ever changing environmnet demand proper deployment practices and handling. Don't put what a dog should and shouldn't do all on the training of the dog. If you do you will create such complex scenarios that all you will have is a confused dog. Knowing when to apply the tool and how to apply the tool is the MOST important aspect of the work. Saying train this way or that way defies the obvious. The obvious being that the simpler your work in the dog's eye the more reliable the dog will be. The more complex it is the greater the failure rate. Practical dog training is about keeping it simple and therefore reliable. Teach only a handful of behaviors and train them in as many environments as possible. Teach the handler when to use the dog and how to use the dog. When deployments go south it is usually due to a handler not controlling their environment, an element being introduced they weren't aware of, training that focused on the dog not the environment or the anticipation of a changing environment, or introducing a dog into a chaotic situation. Or the worst, lets use a dog and see what happens train of thought that is virtually always disasterous.

Officer Matthews

I did hear about that incident, it was posted here months ago. I was an eye witness so I can't comment on the incident, but with all this talk about PSD not having fight drive, maybe training control has become relaxed. Wanting as much fire as possible but discounting control. As Dennis mentioned.

Even at that I don't think the PSD should be put down, but taken off the street and deployed on a swat team sitaution where anybody in the designated area should be brought down or bit. It's a case of using the appropiate tool for the job.

As far as training to attack a certain persuasion I've seen it done, the dog can tell the difference. Not saying this was the case here, but I personally know a Great Dane trained that way.

David
That would be interesting, fire and control, might be a new concept to look at, it woudl definitely make for a better patrol animal.