Thanks Vince. Now I can understand that! Is there anything else on this topic to consider?

Vince... in these dogs that seem to lose drive if not worked...is the working ability gone permanently in these dogs?

If so, how do we know the drive is lost permanently.

Vince,

Thanks for explaining what you mean and differentiating between adults and pups/young dogs. My comments did refer to older dogs. However ......... now PLEASE don't get mad at me .

I want to toss this thought out in response to your comment about puppies not being worked enough that "their drive was never given time to mature and is reduced dramatically".

Maybe it is not the innate drive itself that is reduced by lack of work -- maybe it is the lack of focus in the drive that makes the drive appear to be reduced. IOW when the handler spends time "working" and creating a relationship with a pup, the pup is learning to focus ALL of its drive on whatever the handler is teaching it to focus on. OTOH when the handler has no time to "work" with the same pup, the same drive is allowed to become more "scattered", or unfocused -- this lack of focus may make the same (amount of) drive appear to be reduced when in fact it is not -- it is merely unfocused and scattered.

Sheesh!!! When I wrote my response, there were no other posts after Vince's (the one I addressed. Shows youhow SLOW I am at composing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to ask Ed to add a section to his board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and it is going to be called ABBREVIATIONS and what they stand for! I can figure out some of them but not all of them. I keep comming across them from time to time and even though it saves some strokes on the keyboard it does make it frustrating for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding about being mad but it is aggravating!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Vince... in these dogs that seem to lose drive if not worked...is the working ability gone permanently?

If so, how do we know the drive is lost permanently?

Ok I take back everything I said about ABBREVIATIONS if it caused everyone to clam up.

Hi Glenn. Welcome to the board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't get upset but I wanted to let you know that its considered somewhat rude to "talk over" other people.... what I mean is that by continually adding "chatty" comments that don't directly address the topic... its difficult for people to follow the discussion because they won't see the questions that others have asked or addressed.

Don't think of this as a "chat board" but rather a "discussion board".

I am with Ellen on this one. What may be interpreted as a loss of drive is, in my opinion, a case of the dog being trained not to use these instincts. It can be gotten back, but it will be harder to re-train. My Giant has a ton of prey drive, but only at home. He will only play fetch in the house, tug out side. The drive is still there, we just somehow trained him not to use these drives in other places. We didn't do it on purpose and it has been a huge pain for trying to get him trained, but we did train it.

One possible explanation for dogs seemingly 'forgetting' of diminishing the display of unused drives could be traced to their wild origins.

It seems that wild canids have fixed roles when it comes to the pack hunting game. One animal will attack in a certain idiosyncratic way whilst another will behave differently. This would make the hunting process safer and more effective. Dog A knows what dog B will do each hunting expedition. If each dog had a array of potential behaviours that it might deploy dependent on its whim it would be confusing to all concerned.

Same happens in a infantry platoon, everyone has a job. Someone is a grenadier, someone opperates the minimi, someone the radio. I can do my job with confidence because i know your going to do yours. Sure, I can opperate the gun if you get injured but its not my speciality and I wont do it as well as you do.

As each dog found his role and perfected it his other behaviours would be subsumed and made latent. They'd still be there but in a latent state. If the pack dynamics changed through a pack members death no doubt another animal could learn new behaviours but he'd probabaly never be as good as a dog who'd played that role from youth. Say for example grabing a animal by the face to pull it down or attacking the flanks.

We can extrapolate from that to domestic dogs. As a dog matures he learns what his pack role is and adapts to it. If that role is bitting agressors hed adapt to it. If it is laying on the rug and being a campanion hell adapt to that. If a behaviour isnt needed or encourgaed why should he bother to perfect it? Nature abhores uneeded energy expenditure.

Ive personally seen stock dog develope their own style and speciality. Some dogs become a expert on getting around the head of the mob and turning them around (casting). Other prefer to get in behind and push them along (heeling or driving). I know stock dogs definitely have a personal prefference and its hard to change it once they settle into their role.